The following is a conversation between Benjamin Bellegy, the Executive Director of WINGS, and Denver Frederick, the Host of The Business of Giving.

Denver: At the core of the philanthropic and social investment world, you’ll find WINGS, the Worldwide Initiatives for Grantmaker Support. Their vision is out of a strong, global philanthropic community that strives to build more equitable and just societies across the globe. 

And to learn more about what they do and their exciting new Philanthropy Transformation Initiative, it’s a pleasure to have with us, Benjamin Bellegy, the Executive Director of WINGS.

Benjamin Bellegy Executive Director of WINGS

Welcome to The Business of Giving, Benjamin.

Benjamin: Thank you very much, Denver. 

Denver: Share with us how WINGS came into existence and what drives your mission.

Benjamin: So, WINGS really started about 20 years ago now. It’s not that new, but a lot of what we’re developing in the past few years is quite new and innovative.

But initially, we were already set up to bring together different associations and networks that represent philanthropy in different parts of the world, support the sector in different parts of the world, and with the intent to create bridges and cross-pollination between reflections and practices in the global philanthropy field.

Some well-known foundations like The Ford Foundation or the Charles Stewart Mott Foundation played an important role at the inception, and the network has evolved quite a lot over this period of time from being a relatively loose network, mainly of grantmaker associations such as the Council on Foundations in the U.S., for example, to being a much more diverse platform that brings together a great variety of players that are helping philanthropy to thrive, to grow, to be more impactful.

Denver: You have, I think, close to 200 members right now across some 60 countries. What kind of support do you provide them, and what do the members do to support the work of the network?

Benjamin: So, it’s all very integrated. I think what is really important for us is to unlock the potential of this network. It’s not simply to provide a set of services to them, which of course we do, and we help elevate their voice; we help give visibility to their work, and make that available at the global level, and we do some capacity building on data. We do some capacity building on advocacy and other important issues they’re working on. 

But increasingly, what we’re trying to do is to orchestrate philanthropy movements and really work with our members, who themselves represent a great number of philanthropic entities, and directly the reaches of about a hundred thousand foundations in philanthropic entities. So the question for us is: How do we unlock this incredible power to bring about change both within the philanthropic sector and its practices and what drives the field, but also with our stakeholders, with our environment, and with the importance to create a more enabling environment for philanthropy and for giving to thrive around the world, especially in a context of shrinking civic space… in the context where there are many challenges to the growth and the impact of the philanthropic sector.

And, so indeed, as we try to orchestrate these movements and this collective action, we’re starting new initiatives. One of them, which I think is an interesting reference because it’s a very new way of working for the philanthropic sector, is the Philanthropy for Climate Initiative. And this is an initiative that actually started from our members in Europe where they started thinking about ways to engage non-environmental funders, non-climate funders into climate action with the understanding that the climate emergency is now going to impact the entire philanthropic sector and, of course, the entire society, and that it had to become really an issue for the whole field and not just for a few specialized organizations.

And they started a commitment in the U.K. It was replicated in other countries in Europe, and then WINGS took this globally, and we’ve re-articulated the inputs, the vision, the expertise, and practice from philanthropic networks from around the world and developed an international commitment and started an international campaign, which now really is progressing fast. 

We have more than 650 foundations that have signed the commitment, and now we’re working with our members to try to harmonize also data-gathering and understanding how signing a commitment actually leads to change and action by foundations. So, that’s a really exciting new way of working, which goes well beyond providing a few services to some members, but really working with them to impact the sector at a global level. 

Denver: Fantastic. And I can see it can be a model for other types of initiatives of its sort, but nothing more important than climate at the moment. 

You know, you mentioned, Benjamin, the Council on Foundations, and I’d be curious about being a backbone organization– which I think is fair to call you one– and I think they’re probably the most valuable and also the most underappreciated organizations in the philanthropic space. Talk a little bit about the challenges and benefits of being a backbone.

Benjamin: Yeah, you’re absolutely right. I think this is really a historical fact that infrastructure organizations, support organizations, have always been undervalued, overlooked as actors of change. I think historically, this kind of organization like networks, advisors, and super organizations have been seen in a more contractual way by foundations and philanthropic actors and others as organizations that deliver services for them that they might need, and rarely seen as an ecosystem that is able to actually bring about systemic change, which we are about. And I think that’s also the most exciting about being a backbone organization working as a network, and in our case, as a network of networks, is that we can really address issues at a systemic level and on the long term. 

But that requires a mindset shift to understand the importance of this ecosystem and this infrastructure that remains more invisible, is that the change we’re

looking at is a long-term change, and it’s also a change that we can only contribute to and we cannot attribute necessarily the results and the impact because we are just contributing to a movement that is made of many different organizations and efforts. So, that’s at the same time the challenge and the power, I think, of being a backbone organization. But of course, we’re trying to make more visible the results and the impact that they’re having, which can be actually very, very inspiring, very important.

I always like to give the example of GivingTuesday in the U.S. because I think it shows how an infrastructure organization with a campaign has managed to generate billions of dollars of support for civil society organizations around the world, and without that backbone of organization, you couldn’t have such impressive amount of resources going to civil society; so it shows that this is a very, very concrete impact. But there are so many other dimensions in terms of also not just growing the resources, but improving the impact of philanthropic actors, and so we’re working with our members to work on data to show also at the country level what has been the contribution of the ecosystem to the growth and the impact of the sector.

So, that’s something that we’re working on, and we are trying to engage funders in conversations about the strategic importance of the field, why they need to invest much more intentionally, and I will also add that this is particularly important in emerging economies in the Global South, where there is actually a huge and adept potential for giving and philanthropy, but there are a number of barriers: a lack of trust, a lack of capacity in terms of local organizations, lack of connections and abilities to collaborate for local actors. And so, if we want a real bottom-up, strong development process, then we really need to actively and intentionally invest in the local ecosystems and backbone organizations.

So, that’s an integral part of our global advocacy when we speak not only to foundations, but also to bilateral organizations, multilateral organizations that are trying to get more local resources for the SDGs to say,

Well, it’s really important that you include in your strategy, investments in the local infrastructure for giving and for philanthropy.

Denver: That’s a great point. Well, my observation has been everybody loves backbone organizations. They just want the other guys to pay for them, but they like what they produce.

Benjamin: Absolutely, absolutely. And that’s why, I think, it’s important that we get to a sort of mindset shift in the philanthropic sector that will, I think, allow more foundations to engage because what we hear is often, “Well, you know, as you were saying, this is important, this is great, but we’re not an infrastructure funder,” Or:  “We don’t have a program for that.” And what we respond is that no one has a program for that, and that’s not necessarily a problem. What we need to change is to see these organizations that are critical for the impact that they have and integrate that into their programs. If you work, again, on climate or on education: How do you help build the ecosystem that will create more collective impact of philanthropy around these specific areas? So, there’s a whole mindset shift to make happen.

Denver: You almost want to inform them that in fact their guidelines can be altered. They’re not in stone. Just add it. 

You know, what you do at WINGS is you champion really best practices, transformative practices, and with the plethora of ideas out there, Benjamin, what is a criteria? How do you identify something that rises to that level of being a best practice and should be shared with others?

Benjamin: I would say what is the most important for us when we look at best practices is the genuine intent to transform the practice of a foundation or philanthropic actor and the openness to learn from failure, the openness to really evolve in a way that will create greater change.

So, it’s not so much a certain indicator or a certain number of people’s lives impacted that we’re looking at. What we’re looking at is organizations that have been bold and courageous enough to look into their practices and to change the ways they’re working to have greater impact. So, that’s one critical element we’re looking at.

Another one is of course to bring a diversity of practices, because the philanthropic sector is extremely diverse, of course, geographically speaking, and as we’re a global network, that’s extremely important for us to source best practices from Asia, from Africa, Latin America as well as, of course, Europe or North America. That’s another aspect, but also the different kinds of philanthropy. You have corporate philanthropy, high net-worth individuals; we also have grassroots philanthropy, and community funds and community foundations. So, for us, it’s important to show the impact and the innovative dimension of all these practices.

And then the last point I would highlight is that we rely, again, on our members, and whatever we do is done with our community. So, we open a call for cases and then we let our members also decide to highlight a specific practice, a specific project that they feel is really inspiring and could inspire others around the world, and that’s how we ensure at the same time diversity and quality of examples.

Denver: Benjamin, you have a very unique global perch unlike many of us in that you’re following things every day. Is there any part of the world right now that has you particularly excited in terms of the innovation that is going on in philanthropy?

I know it’s coming from all over, but I didn’t know if there was anything that just jumped out at you as really being particularly interesting and exciting at the moment.

Benjamin: It’s difficult to really isolate a specific region or country. I think it’s really, as we’re saying, a global phenomenon that philanthropic actors are increasingly trying to find new ways to have greater impact.

I think there’s a reckoning that we’re facing massive global challenges. At WINGS, we really embrace the narrative around the concept of a polycrisis. This understanding that we’re facing existential threats for humanity and as such, this requires a complete change in the way we’re doing the work, and being effective is not enough anymore, I think, is the message.

I think, the main paradigm until now for philanthropy in terms of improving its impact was like: Let’s try to be more strategic; let’s try to have more impact on the sort of very specific target we set for ourselves. And now in the context of a polycrisis, this is not enough anymore because philanthropic resources are very small compared to the needs, and because if we really want to continue our work in the future, then we need to address this polycrisis. And it takes trust; it takes engaging in systems change; it takes collaboration and a whole new way of working.

So then, what we’re seeing is that based on this reckoning of a polycrisis around the world, we see different kinds of organizations trying to work differently, trying to work through more trust, through more collaboration and take a backseat sometimes to help change happen at a greater scale than themselves. And this, we’re seeing it happening around the world; we also see some differences, I think, for example, in emerging economies, especially in Asia, where a lot of the philanthropic resources are new resources, new wealth.

There’s a very strong influence of the business and corporate sector that is really changing ways foundations are working, which of course is really interesting because it creates new opportunities to also influence the economic models and to also influence business the other way around and have a sort of blurring of boundaries between business and philanthropy, which is pretty interesting. At the same time, of course, there are also questions and concerns on how not to forget the importance of a strong, independent civil society. 

And so there are specificities like that we see in different parts of the world and for us, it’s really important to connect the dots and to create dialogue between those who are really working with activists and civil society organizations and trying to help organize the resourcing for these types of players, and others who are thinking more to work with family offices and with companies and really build bridges between them because none of these actors can really create the kind of transformation society needs alone.

“And one way I like to think about the change that the sector needs is to say we need to be humbler individually, but we need to be more ambitious collectively.”

Denver: Yeah, you know, I thought it was particularly interesting what you said too about how it’s no longer enough to just be effective as an organization, and I’ve worked with some boards in trying to get them to think differently about the impact of their organization, and they have to almost redefine success.

It isn’t what your organization has done, it’s: How are we doing against the overall problem, and is the problem getting better or worse? And despite what you’ve done, if the problem’s getting worse, you need to rethink how you’re attacking it or challenging it, and I do see that happening all the time. It’s a much broader perspective, but it really does start, at least for me, at the board level— redefine success. It can’t be how many meals you served last quarter or otherwise, it’s never going to happen.

Benjamin: You’re absolutely right. And one way I like to think about the change that the sector needs is to say we need to be humbler individually, but we need to be more ambitious collectively. Right? So, it’s like, it’s not so much about your indicators or your impact… and then you can sort of put it on your report and in that sense, we need to be humbler and accept the fact that no single organization can really bring about the kind of scale of change that is needed.

And so, is recognizing that and letting go also of the control that we try to have over change and accept that we’re going to contribute; we’re going to trust partners and organizations that have great ideas, great values. We’re aligned behind them, and we’re going to support them, and you know, humbly accept that we’re not going to be able to necessarily attribute what we’ve enabled as a change, but that also means being more ambitious because we want to go beyond what our direct impact can be, and that can only be collective. So, that’s the way I like to think about that.

And another really important question in redefining success is success in being consistent as well, and success in being aligned across all the dimensions of a philanthropic actor. And what I mean by that is that I think historically, especially in a context like North America where the whole philanthropic industry is based on the model of endowments, where you have the interest that is generated and allows to support some programs and then you sort of have the perpetuity of the endowment… I think that model is being questioned in the current context of a polycrisis. And the alignment between the way wealth is generated, the way wealth is managed,and then the way it’s being distributed as philanthropy can no longer remain in silos and separated; it has to become integrated.

Of course, that’s a massive challenge. That’s not easy to do, but we really see that this is the way to go if we want to unlock the full transformative potential of philanthropy… so aligning everything behind values, the way we create wealth, the way we manage our organizations, our leadership style, our relationship models with other players… going back to the idea of more humility.

So, this is absolutely critical. It’s not just about technically speaking how strong we are at building schools or training people to get jobs.

“ become stronger at gathering data about their members, how they’re contributing to society, the amount of resources they’re investing in different causes, and that is something that is absolutely critical to also recognize better the role of philanthropy in society and in development. If you don’t have numbers, if you don’t know what the contribution is, then you cannot really have philanthropy recognized as a key player.” 

Denver: Yeah. Really fundamental changes. No question about it. And just not in philanthropy, it’s across society in so many different ways. It’s a real rethink.

You know, one thing that you mentioned before, but we should bring it up again, is the role of data in shaping philanthropy. Tell us how you see data being used currently and what you’re advocating for to see it be used in a more productive way.

Benjamin: Sure. Well, there are two levels, I would say. There is, of course, the individual level for philanthropic actors and foundations to better inform their decisions and their strategies based on available data. And that’s, I think, an area that is growing quickly and will be boosted also by the possibilities of AI and technology. And so there’s a lot happening around that, and one of the, indeed, key messages that we have as part of the Philanthropy Transformation Initiative you were referring to earlier, is the need for philanthropic actors to really leverage the power of data, which is tremendous in understanding better the kind of change that we can bring. So, that’s one dimension. 

Another dimension that we’re working on a little bit more at WINGS because of our nature as a network of philanthropic super organizations is the importance to build a better picture of the contribution of philanthropy to the SDGs or to a specific issue, or to simply social good at the level of a country or region or even globally.  And that data is very piecemeal, is lacking, and that’s because of the lack of investments in the infrastructure that can create that data and gather this data. 

And so we’ve been working with organizations like Candid for many years now to try to train philanthropic networks to become stronger at gathering data about their members, how they’re contributing to society, the amount of resources they’re investing in different causes, and that is something that is absolutely critical to also recognize better the role of philanthropy in society and in development. 

If you don’t have numbers, if you don’t know what the contribution is, then you cannot really have philanthropy recognized as a key player being at the table and then engaging in the multi-stakeholder collaboration that is needed to have a greater impact.

And so we published a global philanthropy data charter; we worked on transparency. We’ve also produced a transparency toolkit to help funders become more transparent with some of our members.

And so that’s something that requires long-term investments, and the infrastructure is absolutely critical for that because it takes collective bodies that can gather the data at the field level and not just their own specific data.

“One of the things that I find interesting in terms of progress is not so much quantitative, it’s more qualitative, I think that, again, as we’re trying to create change at the systemic level and embrace the complexity of the social challenges that we’re addressing, there’s a movement to start to capture stories, to capture narratives, to capture change in a different way that is not strictly rational or that is not strictly based on numbers and statistics, but also on people’s lives, how the trajectory of someone’s life is going to change.” 

Denver: Following up on that, what is the state of the state of measuring impact? I know we’ve talked about it for so long, and it just seems to be many, many successive approximations, but it does seem that most people are a little dissatisfied that we just can’t measure impact to the degree that we want.

Are we making progress on that? What are some of the things that you have encouraged… or some of the other things that you’re working on?

Benjamin: I think that it’s progressing, but there’s a fundamental question here, which is the importance of accountability for funders and foundations, which is not like the default setting.

It’s not the natural mindset of funders and philanthropic organizations to be transparent about and accountable about the change they’re bringing about, so I think there’s really still a lot of work to be done in terms of pushing for more accountability of the sector. And sometimes it’s really simple things like a lot of funders, especially, it’s not so much the case in North America where the culture of giving is very different, but if you go in Latin America, even in Europe or a number of regions of the world, giving remains something that donors try to keep secret, that try to keep discreet with the intent to remain humble most of the time so with a good intent to say, “I don’t want to show off in everything that I’m supporting, I try to stay behind the scenes and help that way.” But, there is a need to speak with the philanthropy community and say, “Well, actually, we need to share that data; we need to share what we’re doing and make that available to others to grow our impact. So, there’s more work to be done, but there’s also progress. 

One of the things that I find interesting in terms of progress is not so much quantitative, it’s more qualitative, I think that, again, as we’re trying to create change at the systemic level and embrace the complexity of the social challenges that we’re addressing, there’s a movement to start to capture stories, to capture narratives, to capture change in a different way that is not strictly rational or that is not strictly based on numbers and statistics, but also on people’s lives, how the trajectory of someone’s life is going to change. And so I think the storytelling piece of monitoring and evaluation is growing in importance, and I think that’s a really encouraging change.

Denver: Yeah, yeah, I would agree with you. I think that all change, at least from my experience, is based on emotions, and it’s based on those stories. And the quantitative data really isn’t that important other than to justify the emotion. You know, you’ve already decided to make the change; now just give me some data so I can do it. And, it’s used almost like the cart after the horse. 

Benjamin, if you had the opportunity to make one fundamental change in the philanthropic sector, what would that be, and why?

Benjamin: Well, that’s a very big question because we’re working on so many different aspects of change that picking one is not easy, but well, I think that that would be like philosophically speaking, in terms of mindset, that would be this shift from thinking as an organization that achieves change by itself to thinking ourselves as enablers of greater change led by others.

So, for me, that’s the fundamental shift because then out of that change, other changes can come. That’s sort of the first fundamental step. And if for more, let’s say specific or more concrete answer to that question, I would then highlight the importance to align, especially endowments, behind mission and values and the resources in general because it’s not endowments… is not the main model outside North America, but still the resources that are allowing philanthropy to work, how can we align them behind the same vision and mission than the way we distribute resources.

If we were, you know, if philanthropic actors around the world were walking the talk on that question, that would have a tremendous impact.

So, that would have an incredible impact because to give you a number, foundation assets globally exceed $1.5 trillion U.S. Dollars, while foundation expenditures are around $150 billion per year.

So if we just continue to be entirely focused on the $150 billion, well, we will have a certain level of impact, but if we really start to align the $1.5 trillion, then it’s a whole different story, and the impact on even the economic architecture and economic models would be absolutely major.

So, I would say that if there was one operational concrete change that we would want to see happen, that would be probably the most interesting one.

Denver: No question. You know, another way of looking at that, I think here in North America, the average grant is $35,000, and when you think of trying to tackle the most intractable problems in society and doing it at $35,000 a throw, it’s not serious, you know; you really have to aggregate hundreds of millions of dollars to really make a difference, and we’re not doing that.

I think a lot of what you just said too really has to do with the ego, and these organizations just have to let go and become part of something larger and maybe not even know the contribution they made to the change, but know that they were part of something bigger that resulted in that kind of change. And that is a different mindset, as you said.

Well, that leads us to a really exciting initiative you have, the Philanthropy Transformation Initiative. Tell us a little bit about that and some of the principles that are guiding it.

Benjamin: Sure. Well, the Philanthropy Transformation Initiative is really a very new development for us at WINGS, which aims at influencing the norms that guide philanthropic actors around the world.

And so what we really try to do is to harvest the collective wisdom of our members around the world when it comes to change in philanthropy and greater impact of our sector. What do they tell us needs to happen?

And so we gathered information and insights from more than 40 members of WINGS around the world, and we had dozens of interviews and collective discussions and desk research, and we worked with the Cambridge Center on Philanthropy, and we came out with this report that has a set of 10 principles for transformation, and these 10 principles touch on some of the most critical issues for our field, some of which we talked about. 

There’s, of course, the importance of data; there’s the importance to shift the power and to work through trust with partners and not completely focus on control. We’re talking about the need for collaboration within philanthropy, but also between philanthropic actors and governments and markets and social movements and others.

And we’re also bringing, I would say, a couple of principles that are maybe newer to most philanthropic organizations. One of them is what we were talking about just earlier, the critical importance for all philanthropic actors to invest in their collective impact, to invest in philanthropic and giving ecosystems, both where they operate, where they’re based, but also where they have programs, including in the Global South, for example, for those who are supporting projects in other regions. So that’s a principle that we believe is critical and is relatively new. 

Another one that is also relatively new is connected to this philanthropy for climate movement I was referring to earlier, the need for all philanthropic actors, whether they are working on education, on culture, health or whatever is their focus, to engage in climate action, to integrate the climate emergency into their work in a transversal way.

So, these are some of the new ideas that emerged from this great consultation and collective effort. 

Now, the idea of this initiative is not to be simply a research or yet another report because you will find a number of reports on trends or future philanthropy. So, for us, the goal is first to bring it all together because there are indeed many resources, many reflections on all of these critical issues. But they tend to be sort of scattered, and they just reach the already convinced funders most of the time. 

So, we’re trying to make this all together in one place with listing existing resources and tools and also documenting some concrete practices and experiences and bring it all together, and then making that available to a much broader community and hopefully, reaching new audiences with this. So, that’s one.

The other aspect is what we’re trying to do now, and we have our Flagship Global Conference WINGS Forum coming up in Nairobi, in Kenya, October 3-5, this year, which is about transformation. And what we want to do, including through WINGS Forum, is to really start building and articulating, again, a global movement for transformation so that it’s not simply a report or a research, but that together with different thought leaders and experts and academics and networks and of course, foundation champions, to really push for change at our own levels and connect the dots and articulate globally to have just a greater impact.

 So, that’s the whole idea of the Philanthropy Transformation Initiative. So, that’s really exciting because a lot of our members are saying, Well, it’s great you’re doing that… We work on transparency, or we work to shift the power and have more unrestricted funding for social organizations, and so we’re really now working to bring it all together, give it more visibility. And so that’s a really exciting initiative indeed. 

“I think philanthropy is the profound human instinct. It maybe even is what makes us humans, this instinct of solidarity and generosity. It has existed since the dawn of humanity in all cultures in different shapes and shades” 

Denver: Sure is. Let me close with this. For those people who are not deep into the philanthropy arena, but let’s take my mother, for instance. If you were to tell her how philanthropy is going to look different 10 years from now as it does today, and maybe even the role that WINGS will be playing in that, what would be the difference that most people would see?

Benjamin: I think I would first take a little bit of time to discuss what philanthropy is with your mother, and I would highlight the fact that it belongs to everyone. I think that’s critical that we move away from a vision of philanthropy as being something reserved for wealthy people or for corporations or connected to business strictly.

I think philanthropy is the profound human instinct. It maybe even is what makes us humans, this instinct of solidarity and generosity. It has existed since the dawn of humanity in all cultures in different shapes and shades, and it’s really important to recognize all these practices and to build on these cultures of giving to harness this generosity in ways that can really transform our societies.

So, I would start with that, but then in terms of how it would change in the 10 coming years, I would say that this generosity movement first will engage in society in a much more open way, which means both sharing more of what they do and being more visible with others, but coordinating and collaborating with other actors as well to create change at a greater scale.

I think that is one of the critical changes that is starting to happen, but too slow and we hope will accelerate in the next decade. The other… let’s say hope that I would formulate for our field is again to be really self-critical and to permanently find ways to become more aligned behind their values and walk the talk in different ways to create change at a deeper level.

And so these would be maybe a couple of changes that we hope to see, and the way WINGS is helping with that is, of course, by influencing and pushing for these narratives and showing how it can be done in practice as we’re doing with the Philanthropy Transformation Initiative, as we’re doing with the Philanthropy for Climate commitment, and it’s also by strengthening these ecosystems, strengthening these networks that are playing such a critical role to make change happen within the philanthropic sector. 

And there’s momentum. I think we started our discussion acknowledging the funding gap and the lack of understanding of the importance of this infrastructure for philanthropy, but also for civil society I would say, more broadly, of course. And I think there’s momentum now. It’s possible that this vision changes. 

I think the strategy that MacKenzie Scott, for example, has developed, has really centered networks and intermediaries and support organizations, and there’s been really a very influential effort by MacKenzie Scott, that is now starting to have a ripple effect, and a number of other founders are wondering if they should not be more proactive in strengthening these intermediaries and ecosystems.

And likewise, in the development sector, in the humanitarian sector, we see key players like USAID, with the localization agenda and the European Union, and a number of others who are really starting to think about the critical importance to strengthen networks and infrastructure. So, I think that there’s a great opportunity here to change the way the philanthropy sector is working and is growing.

Denver: It certainly is an interesting time. Worldwide Initiatives for Grantmaker Support or WINGS– tell us about your website and what visitors will find on it.

Benjamin: So, if you’d come to our website,, you will find, well, first information about our community and our members. There’s a members map. You can better understand who is part of it and where they are, and you can, why not, connect with some of them. But you will also find a knowledge center there, which is connected to Issue Lab where you will access more than 800 publications and research on philanthropy with an easy way to navigate that and find what you are most interested in. So that will be one of the maybe highlights if you visit the website. 

And then of course you will also be able to access a different platform such as the dedicated space we have for the Philanthropy Transformation Initiative with concrete examples of transformation from around the world with many resources connected to each of these principles for change that we talked about. And then you will also find a lot of news and events on what is going on in philanthropy globally. You can also subscribe to our newsletter and stay connected and stay tuned with all the great work that our members are doing around the world.

Denver: Something for everyone. Well, I want to thank you so much for being here today, Benjamin, it was a real pleasure to have you on the show.

Benjamin: Thank you so much, Denver. It was a great pleasure for me too.

Denver Frederick, Host of The Business of Giving serves as a Trusted Advisor and Executive Coach to Nonprofit Leaders. His Book, The Business of Giving: New Best Practices for Nonprofit and Philanthropic Leaders in an Uncertain World, is available now on Amazon and Barnes & Noble.

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