The following is a conversation between Blair Epstein, Partner of McKinsey & Company, San Francisco office, and Denver Frederick, the Host of The Business of Giving.

Denver: Blair Epstein is a partner in McKinsey & Company, San Francisco office. Her work focuses on delivering organizational change from strategy to execution, including cultural change, top team effectiveness, leadership development, performance management, and continuous improvement. The kind of work that she and others at McKinsey do has been captured in the much-acclaimed book written by a trio of her colleagues titled CEO Excellence: The Six Mindsets That Distinguish the Best Leaders from the Rest.

Welcome to The Business of Giving, Blair.

Blair Epstein, Partner of McKinsey & Company, San Francisco Office

Blair: Thanks for having me.

Denver: Tell us a little bit about your background and your journey to becoming a partner at McKinsey.

Blair: So for me, when I look back at what’s gotten me excited at every stage of my career so far, and honestly, if you look back even before that, it’s been all about people, people in different ways.

For me, the research we’ve gotten to do over the last few years into CEO Excellence is the end of a journey of getting to learn: How do we counsel executive council leaders, help cultures be effective, and essentially get the people side of business, the people side of what organizations try to do every day?

And so that, for me, has been the through-thread through my journey. And along the way there’s been some different twists and turns, but I’ve got to say I’m feeling pretty good about where it’s landed right now.

Denver: There you go. CEO Excellence is really a very much acclaimed book, and I just am curious, in this veritable sea of leadership books, what do you think makes this one stand out?

Blair: So as we’ve gone out and we’ve talked to, at this point, hundreds of people about it, a couple of themes keep coming up when people tell us why they enjoy the book, why they find it so helpful. The first is in keeping with the way that McKinsey approaches most things. There’s real rigor and real analysis behind it.

We did real work to filter through thousands of executives to understand who truly were the ones who outperformed, and used that as our jumping-off point. The second is that the framework where we landed, in terms of what the role is and what excellent CEOs do and think differently than the rest of us, that is so broadly applicable.

I bet  people, in any number of roles, in any number of sectors, including the nonprofit, government agency roles, find themselves in the lessons in the book. And then last, but certainly not least, is: it’s full of stories. People love the stories, love the chance to feel like you’re getting a Master Class from nearly 70 of these exceptional leaders. And I’ve got to say, I think that last one is the biggest one.

“And importantly, no executive can do it alone, which is why this organizational piece, the talent, the culture, the organizational structures, are so important. And there’s a reason why the lesson, the mindset we took away from high performing CEOs is that they find ways to treat the soft stuff as the hard stuff, which in our case is a bit of a play. First, they treat it with enormous rigor and discipline. And the second is just the acknowledgement that this really is hard.“

Denver: I agree with you. There’s a little voyeurism going on when you’re kind of getting inside their brains and inside their organizations, and so many books just put those things in generalities. But when you identify the individual and the organization, it just has more credence than it otherwise might if you just put them all together and said, “most CEOs.” These are individual people.

Let’s talk about a couple of the points in the books, and one that you have worked on a lot and written about has been the one-firm way of working. And I think everybody understands that’s a beneficial way to go, but it’s not that easy to do when everybody’s got their own parochial interest. I know McKinsey was built that way, but most organizations have not been. What are the keys to making that transition to a one-firm organization?

Blair: Yeah. And if I back up and put this in the context of what executives, what CEOs are dealing with, this is one of the, kind of, big six parts of what the role is. These leaders are expected to: set the direction, align the organization to execute on it… which is what we’re talking about here… mobilize through their leaders, engage boards and stakeholders, manage their own personal effectiveness. That’s a lot to have on your plate.

And importantly, no executive can do it alone, which is why this organizational piece, the talent, the culture, the organizational structures, are so important. And there’s a reason why the lesson, the mindset we took away from high performing CEOs is that they find ways to treat the soft stuff as the hard stuff, which in our case is a bit of a play.

First, they treat it with enormous rigor and discipline. And the second is just the acknowledgement that this really is hard. Things like, as you said, building a one-firm way of working and way of being is enormously difficult. And so what we find when executives have a strategy and a vision that requires that kind of integration, this is not something they get to on a best-efforts basis.

They make an enormously concerted push to create an org. structure with intentional interdependencies that makes a one-firm way of working the easy path, the path of least resistance. They make sure that the way people are incentivized and structured and the way that they’re encouraged to act, again, is consistent with that one-firm way of working.

They explain very clearly and build conviction and why it is that this matters. And what you then see at the end of the day, and what we found in our research is that firms that do have that level of cultural cohesion outperform. And so it does pay off at the end. But it takes all of these things that may sound simple when I list them out, but are so difficult in practice to get there.

Denver: Yeah. And there are also things that none of them ever learned in school. Business schools are not teaching about the soft stuff. They are beginning to now, but I think a lot of the people at the top spots were not there when they started.

You talked about people, and I work with a lot of nonprofit organizations and I got to tell you, Blair, sometimes I’m befuddled why some people are in certain jobs and not in others. And one of your skill sets is really trying to get the right people into the right place for a good fit. What are some of the things you look for in bringing that about?

Blair: Yeah, so the first is this… is again, this idea of treating the soft stuff like the hard stuff. The first mindset you got to bring to this is that you are going to bring real rigor to thinking about the process. And that rigor actually begins with figuring out which roles you’re going to take this kind of look at.

I would say that the traditional way of doing this, the way I see most folks that I work with start it is thinking, “Well, I’m going to think with this level of rigor about my direct reports, about the most senior leaders in the organization.” The trick is that that’s only part of the answer. Where we see exceptional leaders go is that they work strategy back.

They ask themselves: What are the roles, regardless of where they sit in the hierarchy, that are going to be most important in delivering my vision, in delivering my strategy? And then, that’s the basket of roles, right? The critical couple of percent of people in their organization that they’re going to treat their roles with this level of rigor.

What they then do is they are very disciplined about saying: What is it that I need this role to do? What are the critical missions that whoever is in this role needs to do? Based on that, what do I need to see from a capability, from a mindset perspective? And only then are you really in a position to say, Do I have the right person? Who would be the right person? And what’s my plan to act based on my insights there?

Denver: Yeah. So they start with the end and then start working back as to who would be the person that they need to fill that objective.

Blair: And as with so many things, when you say that out loud, it feels obvious. It doesn’t feel like rocket science, but it really is challenging. There is a reason why leaders aren’t already doing this today. And often it’s because they’re so busy.

They’re so busy that the urgent is crowding out the important. And what I find leaders often miss is that if they got this right, they would have so much more leverage. They would be a force multiplier. And it would actually not just make their lives easier in the end, but unlock the potential of the organization to a really substantial degree.

Denver: Yeah. I think we’re all thinking about what’s the next thing we have to do.

Blair: Exactly.

“…if I talk broadly across a few different mergers I’ve been involved in, you are right. Missing culture is missing what ultimately ends up being the driver of the success or failure of a number of integrations. Because it is what dictates whether once you sign the deal, once you’ve inked the agreement, are people actually going to come together such that the sum is bigger, is better, is more impactful than the parts?”

Denver: And it’s that next step. And you’re not thinking nine steps down the road and working backwards, you’re thinking about what has to be done. You talked about culture a little bit, and there’s a lot of things that we could talk about regarding culture, but one specifically to you was that you worked in a large post-merger organization in a heavily regulated sector.

And having worked on a number of nonprofit mergers and a few others, I have always noted that this thing, in terms of the culture, is never a major priority, although it should be. They’re thinking about everything else. What are some of the things that you did to have this successful integration when these two entities came together as one?

Blair: Yeah, and if I talk broadly across a few different mergers I’ve been involved in, you are right. Missing culture is missing what ultimately ends up being the driver of the success or failure of a number of integrations. Because it is what dictates whether once you sign the deal, once you’ve inked the agreement, are people actually going to come together such that the sum is bigger, is better, is more impactful than the parts?

And so what I see leaders do when they’re going to get this right, is they start by really taking stock of the culture, the ways of working, the norms on both sides. And they look at those, and they make a conscious choice about: What do we want our new organization’s culture, our new organization’s norms and ways of working to look like?

The choices you make there, whether it looks like a hybrid between the two, more like one or the other, really depends on your context. But you have to have a point of view in terms of where you want to lead, not just on performance, but on what we might call organizational health. You also have to know where is that going to be easy and hard.

Where are you playing into the natural tendencies of folks who have grown up in both places? Where is it going to be harder for one side or the other? Where it might be hard for both, and really pay attention to things like decision making, right? I’d say that’s one of the most common places we see friction in integration situations.

And then exactly like we talked about from a one-firm perspective that often, by the way, is one of the things you’re trying to build. You really have to think through: How are you, at scale, going to apply all of the big influence levers, the building the understanding of where we’re going, the role modeling, the capability building, the equipping, the reinforcing and rewarding?

You need to have a discipline plan for how you’re going to pull all those levers to make the culture real. Otherwise, you’re going to end up with what I think a lot of folks have probably experienced, where you look back a couple years later, and it feels like you’re still part of a Frankenstein organization.

Denver: Oh yeah.

Blair: Maybe they’re still introducing themselves as legacy this or legacy that. And that’s not what you want.

Denver: No, no. And sometimes, to your point, I think it takes some original thinking. Often, I see kind of getting into compromise between the two cultures, which is a hybrid mess. Now, I’m not saying hybrid is bad, but often it’s just sort of seeking mediocrity and not looking for conflict. And it’s diluted, as opposed to saying: Where is this organization going, and what’s the kind of culture we need to take us there?

Let’s talk a little bit about organizational health. Again, one of your experiences with the pediatric academic medical center, what you did is you really changed the level of expectations there and got some really outstanding outcomes from that. Tell us a little bit about that process.

Blair: Yeah, so one of the things that I think is most interesting here… well, actually, let me pause for a second. Let me start with… I mentioned before you just mentioned the idea of organizational health, which may or may not make sense to folks who are listening. And so the way that we think about that is, on the one hand, you have performance.

This, to your point earlier, is what classic business school education, classic management training focuses on. What are we making it? How are we making it? How are we doing it better? How are we having more impact in the world? And there’s a long history of folks being very disciplined about setting their strategy, understanding how they’re measuring it, building the portfolio initiatives right to execute there.

What we’ve learned over about two decades of research is that if you want to sustain that performance over time, you also have to be healthy as an organization. You can easily imagine the athletic analogy here of a human who wants to compete at the highest level of their sports. You have to manage your health longer term so you can sustain that performance.

And for organizations, this isn’t about managing your, I don’t know, your VO2 Max, or whatever. It’s about navigating three things. How do you and how effectively do you align on a direction? How do you bring a high quality of interaction and execution so that there’s as little sand in the gear as possible?

And then last but not least, because the world’s not a static place, how are you going to renew, adapt, and stay connected to meaning and purpose over time? So that’s organizational health. What we found in this particular context was the organization was actually fairly healthy, but what got us here wasn’t going to get us there. They were setting even more bold aspirations for the future, and so needed to go from, in a way, great… to greater still.

An example of that, as you might imagine in an institution like this, one of their core strengths is just how mission-driven their people are. And that shows up throughout the different aspects of their organizational health. And folks really approached their work from the lens of: We will do anything, we will do everything for the mission because it is that important.

And that, in a lot of ways, gave people an immense sense of personal ownership. They would run through brick walls to make the right thing happen. But it also had some real unintended consequences. If you play that through to its logical extreme, you can imagine… and this happened to them, it makes it very hard to have strategic clarity. It makes it very hard to prioritize. It contributes to burnout.

And so for them, one of the things they had to work on was reframing this mindset of: Do everything all the time for the mission, which by the way, is something that good, competent, well-intended people would believe. That had to be reframed to being about focusing for even more impact. And so that’s where this work often starts, is understanding the baseline, figuring out what are these unlocks, and then doing the real work to make them happen.

And in this case, one of the most powerful experiences for me personally was the work we did with the top thousand or so leaders to help them really explore these mindsets for themselves, understand what needed to change, build some of their capabilities. And for me, it was a real privilege to be a part of what, for a number of folks, was a transformative experience.

Denver: Yeah, it sounds that way. Yeah. I find sometimes, Blair, in mission-oriented organizations, too much emphasis is put on how much you care and how effective you are. And as you look at performance management, if somebody really, really cares, well, we got to keep them around. I mean, they care, and that’s a big, big part of it, but it’s not the entire story.

Let’s talk a little bit more about culture there because I know in the book it says: When you’re really trying to change a culture, it makes some sense to focus maybe on one thing. Tell us a little bit about your experience with that.

Blair: Yeah, and I think this is where the role of the CEO in so many ways is to be the ultimate integrator. Satya Nadella had a great quote about how part of why the role is so hard, is so lonely, is that there’s an information asymmetry problem. No one else sees what you see. And part of what that role makes incumbent upon you is you are the ultimate integrator and the ultimate simplifier. You are the ultimate rallyer of the troops.

And no one else can do some of these things that you can. And the way this plays into culture is that you have to take all of the complexity we just talked about–all of the elements of organizational health, all of the ways you’re trying to change them, to grow them, to protect them, and boil it down to something that folks can hang their hats on.

One example of this that we featured in the book that also follows this one firm kind of ethos, is at Aon, which is a large professional financial services firm, where Greg Case, for a number of years, has really talked about Aon United. And that’s the example of what folks get to… these CEOs find a way to articulate a complex set of ideas into something simple that they can rally folks around. And then of course, there’s a lot hanging underneath that.

Denver: Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes we do too much about the mission and not enough about the mantra. And it’s the mantra– make something that is really simple. And I sometimes think that a CEO is becoming sort of like the lead facilitator.

They are the ones that need to bring everybody together, ask the right questions, and then connect all the dots, as you just said. They’re the ones that assemble all the dots, and then put those dots together in something that everybody can say, “Ah, that’s us. That’s what we stand for. That is what we do.”

Let’s get back to something we talked a little bit about before, the challenge of the CEO, and that’s balancing the long term and the short term. So in my world of nonprofits, that would probably be best described as systems change, really looking at the underlying problems and addressing them.

But it would also contrast with place-based concerns about people who are living today and, Hey, I need your help right away. Obviously, the same thing applies to business as well. How do you think about that or suggest, or recommend to your clients how to balance that long term and short term?

Blair: Yeah. Well, I think the fundamental challenge here is that there isn’t a silver bullet because it has to be an “and.” And it is impossible to do everything all at once. And so I wish, I really wish that there was the shortcut, the trick, the hack to get this right every time. But this is one of the fundamental challenges that CEOs have to wrestle with, and it’s not going anywhere.

Denver: Yeah.

Blair: So how do you look at everything you could do in the world? Narrow that down as a CEO to what is going to be the most impactful thesis for the next chapter of your organization, which can evolve over time. But for the next chapter, what is your big, bold vision for what you’re going to achieve, one that reframes the game, redefines what winning looks like?

And then what are the most important things you’re going to do to deliver against that? And you’re going to have to make choices. And that fundamentally, owning those tough decisions, it sits with you as a CEO.

“Another place where CEOs struggle is just their operating model. We’ve talked about, indirectly, the number of things the CEO does, the number of demands on their time. And I’ve yet to meet a CEO new in the role who feels like they’ve got how they spend their time, how they manage their energy, how they show up as a leader, nailed on day one. There’s a real learning curve there for most folks.”

Denver: Yeah. Well, I was hoping for a silver bullet, but you know what? I think the only… it is just to think about them both. You have to have a foot in each world and make sure you have a foot in each world periodically in, particularly that long-term world. Just say x percent of my time, I’m going to be thinking about that.

You take a lot of leaders through that entire journey. What are some of the big misconceptions that new CEOs have?

Blair: So there’s a couple that come up. One, if I just think of where folks tend to stumble in the role of where they find things more natural. As hard as everything we’ve been talking about is– setting the direction, aligning the organization, mobilizing leaders– to some extent, most experienced leaders have done that in their executive roles before they become CEO.

And so the spotlight is brighter, the role is harder, but they tend to have those muscles. Where folks sometimes find things to be particularly challenging is in the other half of the role, when it comes to engaging the board and engaging stakeholders, because there’s a unique set of responsibilities there as CEO that executives may not have experienced.

And so figuring out, for example… we talk about experienced CEOs have learned to what we call with the board “help directors help the business.” Help them help you, rather than trying to keep them at an arm’s length. And that requires a different level of investment and capability and context sharing with the board, a different level of transparency… really trusted relationships.

That’s not intuitive to a lot of new CEOs who often I hear describing a bit of wanting to survive the next board meeting.

Denver: Oh, all the time, Blair. You know what I mean? The big sigh of relief on them and the entire staff: We made it through!

Blair: Exactly. And that’s just a really different mindset. Again, a mindset that is very relatable. Then thinking through: How can I get these folks to work for me? How can I get everything I can possibly get out of them? Because they’re there for a reason. And so that’s a place where CEOs struggle.

Another place where CEOs struggle is just their operating model. We’ve talked about, indirectly, the number of things the CEO does, the number of demands on their time. And I’ve yet to meet a CEO new in the role who feels like they’ve got how they spend their time, how they manage their energy, how they show up as a leader, nailed on day one. There’s a real learning curve there for most folks.

Denver: What would be your number one tip on time management? Because boy, they struggle with that.

Blair: Yeah. So I’m going to steal words from the CEOs we talk to.

Denver: That’s the way to do it.

Blair: Right? Exactly. Their mindset is: Do what only you can do, which sounds right. But let me tell you what that’s not. It is not do whatever needs to be done. It is not even necessarily do what most needs to be done. And that is the mindset I see a lot of new CEOs come in with. It is a very well-intentioned servant leader mindset that comes from the right place.

The challenge is that a CEO… the scope of what needs to be done, the scope of what you could do is way too big. And so if you don’t apply the filter of doing what only you can do, and mobilizing other people for the rest of it, making the tough prioritization decisions for the rest of it, you can’t pass Go. And so that is the filter that you have to apply.

The way we see effective leaders doing that as they apply that filter, is they, for example, don’t think about their job as a marathon. We love to talk about how it’s a marathon, not a sprint. That’s another trap to fall into here. What we see these leaders do instead is they actually think of it as a series of sprints.

Denver: Yep.

Blair: Whether that sprint is on the level of months and years, sprinting, then creating space for recovery, or even within their day. That’s the ethos that they bring to the way that they manage their time.

Denver: Oh, it sounds like when you’re doing a sprint, you have the finish line right in front of you, so you’re thinking about what the outcome is going to be. When it’s a marathon, you’re kind of just, I don’t know, doing strategy and positioning yourself in the race, but it doesn’t really lead to the outcomes.

One thing that I’ve observed sometimes, too, is that leaders spend an inordinate amount of time in the discipline from which they came. So again, in nonprofits, if you were a fundraiser coming up, you’re going to… so you almost want to say, Spend less time than you think you need to spend, because you want to go back to what you’re good at.And you want everybody in the organization to say, Ooh, they’re good at that! And you get the imbalance. 

You are one of the first co-authors, I think, of “Women in the Workplace,” which is a report that McKinsey does. How have you applied those findings to create more equitable workplaces with some of your clients?

Blair: Yeah. So first of all, I would say this body of research has been another real privilege to be a part of. We do it in partnership with LeanIn.Org foundation. And one of the findings for that research that has stuck with me most, that has consistently come up in our research year after year, is this idea of a broken rung, that in many workplaces in corporate America at large, we’ve actually gotten much better about bringing in a more balanced workforce at the entry level.

Still room to go, but actually pretty good on most dimensions there. Where we see though, is a precipitous drop-off in most contexts, into the managerial ranks. There’s  a broken rung climbing up the ladder into your first leadership role, and that continues to be exacerbated as you get more senior.

And two things I take away from that. One is that it’s frustrating. We’ve made progress, yet it’s not showing up. But the other one is actually a lot of optimism. We can help women; we can help people from different underrepresented backgrounds become managers today. This isn’t something that we need to allow someone’s career to play out for decades. This is pretty early on in someone’s trajectory.

And so I love, in addition to helping to do all the basics of making sure folks understand their baseline, have the right holistic strategy. I personally take a lot of energy when we’re getting to shape folks’ careers from the start, because this broken rung concept to me is one that really stands out.

Denver: Sounds more like a sprint than a marathon, you know?

Blair: There we go.

“…I think the first is: take advantage of whatever resources you have. It could be books like ours; it could be talking to folks in your network, and just understand what the job looks like. It is incredibly important to know what you’re signing up for because when you talk to CEOs, they describe a role that is hard, that can be lonely, but also one that is an incredible platform for impact.”

Denver: There you go. Let’s talk a little bit about that because you do love to take and counsel leaders through their careers and the journeys that they take. What advice would you have for a young executive, perhaps one, I mean, perhaps a woman with the aspirations of one day being a CEO and leading the company or an organization?

Blair: Yeah, so I think the first is: take advantage of whatever resources you have. It could be books like ours; it could be talking to folks in your network, and just understand what the job looks like. It is incredibly important to know what you’re signing up for because when you talk to CEOs, they describe a role that is hard, that can be lonely, but also one that is an incredible platform for impact.

And so you should make sure that you are genuinely excited about signing up for that role. Once you’re ready for it, once you know you want to do it, step back and ask yourself: What would ideally an executive in the kind of seat I want to sit in bring to the table? Where am I on track to? Or where do I already have that know-how, that track record, the network, the leadership attributes?

Where do I already have those things, and where do I want to invest in my own development? Because guess what! No one is going to be as thoughtful about that as you. And so, do that thinking for yourself. Of course, take advantage of development opportunities that are offered to you, but offer your own journey.

And as you go through all of this, I do think, particularly this point on: do what only you can do is something that women in particular, anecdotally, based on my experience, could carry earlier into their careers, and really unlock some capacity for themselves as leaders.

Denver: Yeah, they’re fixers. They see something, they fix it, and sometimes that is not the best route to go if you’re, you know…

Blair: And I should say that I am wildly projecting as someone who could use a little work on that one myself though. 

Denver: Well, I can see how well you understand the issue. You know what I mean?

Finally, Blair, you have worked in the public and social sector practice in the Washington DC office. What are some of your observations between what you’ve seen, between the business sector and the nonprofit sector, particularly when it comes to leadership, the kind of skills, the kind of mindsets you have to have in the nonprofit sector, compared to business, in order to be successful?

Blair: Yeah. One of the things that I really appreciate about the public sector and the nonprofit sector is that I think we’re way ahead of being able to do what now all leaders have really started focusing on the last few years, which is to make it about more than money.

To understand and to articulate the deeper purpose behind what we all do, to make sure that what we are doing at work is truly consistent with that, and to use it as a way to make sure that you’ve got folks who are truly engaged and on board with what you’re trying to get done– that to me is something where the public and the nonprofit sectors should be the ones teaching the Master Class. It’s so second nature that I think it’s underappreciated just how good you are at that.

 And so I would celebrate that. And then I would also say: Things aren’t as different as people sometimes try to make them out to be. I know that… I’m sometimes in conversations where, whichever side of this you sit on– private, public, nonprofit, you look across the fence, and I hear conversations where people act like it’s an alien leadership. Like there’s nothing in common and nothing to learn.

 I think there are real opportunities to learn from high-performing leaders, leaders you admire across sectors. Be thoughtful about what you take in. So, for example, a government official and agency secretary doesn’t have a traditional board like I was talking about. But you certainly have stakeholders where you can think about: How can I help them help me?

And so I would just encourage everyone to look for lessons wherever you can find them and import them into your context.

Denver: Yeah, I’ve heard of that from a lot of business leaders who say that in nonprofits, you can’t pay as competitively, so you find a lot of workarounds to try to engage your employees, and you deal with volunteers. This one guest said that you’ve never really managed until you’ve managed volunteers. And that’s one of the greatest pieces of advice that I’ve ever gotten because you have to just do it through influence because you have no carrot; you have no stick; you just have influence.

Blair, for people who want to learn more about this… number one, pick up CEO Excellence: The Six Mindsets That Distinguish the Best Leaders from the Rest, but also tell us a little bit about your blog and some of the writings people can grab onto on the McKinsey site that will give them some more information about what we’ve been talking about.

Blair: Yeah, absolutely. A few things to draw your attention to. On the topic of CEO Excellence, we’ve been putting out a series of articles that take the thinking from the book and make it real to different stages of the journey. So if you, for example, we talked about if you’re someone who aspires to be a CEO someday, we’ve recently published an article that’s all about stepping up. What does that look like for you? And so on and so forth.

So take a minute, read those. You, Denver, you also referred to the publication we recently put out on a one-firm way of working and how to get there. Again, if that’s a challenge you’re facing, and I suspect many of our listeners are…

Denver: Ooh, oh, yeah.

Blair: …it is worth checking out, in addition to the research making the case for why. Even if you weren’t thinking about it, you probably should. There’s a bit of the practical playbook in terms of how to make it work.

And then, last but not least, the last thing I would call it is “the women in the workplace” research. It is an enormous body of research. It’s incredibly important. It’s now gone on for a number of years. Go check that out as well.

Denver: All on your website, correct?

Blair: Correct.

Denver: There you go. Well, thanks, Blair, for taking the time to be here today with us. It was a real delight to have you on the program.

Blair: Thank you again for having me.

Denver Frederick, Host of The Business of Giving serves as a Trusted Advisor and Executive Coach to Nonprofit Leaders. His Book, The Business of Giving: New Best Practices for Nonprofit and Philanthropic Leaders in an Uncertain World, is available now on Amazon and Barnes & Noble.

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