The following is a conversation between Dr. Jean Greaves, Co-Author of Team Emotional Intelligence 2.0, and Denver Frederick, the Host of The Business of Giving.

Denver: As organizations shift to depend more on team-based structures, the pressure to develop high-performing teams is more critical than ever. And while it’s crucial to have talented, bright people within a team, there’s a dynamic that’s even more essential to overall team effectiveness. That dynamic is Team Emotional Intelligence, or Team EQ. And here to discuss that with us today is Dr. Jean Greaves, EQ expert and co-author of Team Emotional Intelligence 2.0.

Welcome to The Business of Giving, Jean.

Dr. Jean Greaves, co-author of Team Emotional Intelligence 2.0

Jean: Thank you. I’m glad to be here.

Denver: So let’s start at the beginning. What are emotions, and what is emotional intelligence?

Jean: I like to point out to people that emotions are our internal data set. They are signals, electrical signals moving around in our brains and our bodies, trying to grab our attention so that we can make good choices and decide what to do next. But we think of them as feelings, and that’s sort of a qualitative experience as well.

“Now, emotional intelligence is a set of skills. People often think, Oh, was I born with it or not? And it’s not that at all. It’s a set of skills where you are a person who becomes good at being aware of your emotions, managing them effectively, being able to recognize those in someone else, and being able to manage the interactions and relationships that you have with them.”

Denver: And emotional intelligence?

Jean: Now, emotional intelligence is a set of skills. People often think, “Oh, was I born with it or not? And it’s not that at all. It’s a set of skills where you are a person who becomes good at being aware of your emotions, managing them effectively, being able to recognize those in someone else, and being able to manage the interactions and relationships that you have with them.

Denver: So we can get better at it. If it’s not inborn, doesn’t mean you’re out of the game. It means you can actually work, and like any other skill, just improve and improve and improve.

Jean: Right. At a physiological basis, the idea is to repeat, repeat, repeat these behaviors and skills, and you can get better within six, nine months or so.

Denver: Wow.

Jean: Yeah.

Denver: Now, I have read that EQ is more important than IQ. I think you’ve even done some research about that, and you certainly have spoken about it. So if that’s the case, Jean, why is EQ so relatively undervalued?

Jean: Well, I believe that our society’s education system has placed value in the knowledge that you bring into the workplace and into your career. That’s what we spend all our hours in school preparing. Not that IQ and your knowledge aren’t important, it’s just that by the time you’re entering your profession, the field has been leveled.

Everyone is assumed, even through a hiring process, they’re weeding out even further that everyone in that job is relatively capable. So now you ask yourself: What is going to help one person shine over another? And more often the case is, it’s how they’re interacting with those around them to get things done together in a group or a team.

Denver: Can you determine that, you think, during an interview and a hiring process?

Jean: You cannot through testing, but through really mindful questions where you dig deeper and explore how people have addressed situations. And if you ask enough of these questions, you get beyond the rehearsed answers into having someone think back in memory, and you’ll be amazed what they admit in an interview.

Denver: Give us an example of a question that you like.

Jean: Well, tell us about a time of something that triggered a strong reaction at work. That’s the first question. What triggered you? What did you say or do, or not say or do, when you maybe should have? What was the result? And then asking them: If you had to do it over again, what might you do differently?

Denver: Wow!

Jean: And for someone who can’t even take you through that discussion, it may be a signal that they don’t have self-awareness around those emotions. It’s just one piece of data. It doesn’t mean, okay, now they can’t be hired because they have no EQ. It’s that: Oh, they haven’t really thought through how they contribute to those situations.

“…emotion awareness for teams is a group’s ability to recognize the moods and the feelings that are surfacing within the discussions around the table. And for a group that’s got emotion awareness, they can recognize their patterns and name them, not moving beyond just being able to understand and fully make the most of what their tendencies are, both individually and as team members.”

Denver: Yeah. It was funny, I was talking to an organization the other day and what they do on their interview is they give every applicant a writing test. And then what happens after the writing test is that somebody outside the interview will review the writing test, and then they’ll give the person feedback.

And she was telling me, we really don’t care about their writing. We want to see how they react to the feedback, and if they accept it and are constructive about it, okay, they can learn and they can fit in. And if they get really defensive about every little issue, you say, no, the fit ain’t going to be here. So there, it’s really an interesting dynamic that is… we’re all looking at one thing, but it’s really something else.

Well, the book focuses on four key skills of T EQ, and I’m going to ask you to run through each. And why don’t we start with Emotion Awareness.

Jean: Yes. Now, emotion awareness for teams is a group’s ability to recognize the moods and the feelings that are surfacing within the discussions around the table. And for a group that’s got emotion awareness, they can recognize their patterns and name them, not moving beyond just being able to understand and fully make the most of what their tendencies are, both individually and as team members.

Denver: Yeah. So one of those strategies, as you just mentioned a second ago, is to catch the mood in the room.

Jean: Mm-hmm. Yes.

Denver: Go a little bit deeper on that one.

Jean: Well, when you are at a meeting, we’re often so focused on what’s being said or doing our grocery list in our minds, one or the other, that we forget to kind of look around and almost experience physically what’s occurring… if everyone’s distracted, or as you said, just like in a hiring situation, if someone suddenly gets defensive…People can viscerally experience that. Suddenly you’re alert and you’re wondering: Okay, what are they protecting? But we don’t always give ourselves permission to really take that information in. 

And among a team discussion, a team member can actually call it out and name it in the moment by saying something along the lines of: Wow, that took us by surprise! Did you guys notice just how quiet we all got? That’s an example of sort of catching the mood in the room and just naming it. Not necessarily fixing it, but just naming it.

Denver: Labeling does an awful lot. And as you’re talking, I’m thinking about my phone and doing a selfie. And I think a lot of times when you’re in a team meeting, you really have your phone doing a selfie, and you really have to turn it around and not think so much what everybody’s thinking of me. But really make them the stars and think about what’s doing. And we sometimes are so preoccupied with how I’m coming across that we close those channels down.

Jean: Yeah. Now, emotions are very contagious. So if you find yourself in a situation with other people, suddenly feeling distracted or left out, it’s not for no reason, right? You can tune in and begin to notice what you’re feeling over time as you’re with people.

“…emotion management at a team level is the ability to continually make the most productive next choices. This is around whether the team needs to take a break, or whether someone is speaking and getting interrupted. These are the behaviors. And I typically will define a behavior as what you say or do, or don’t say when you should have. So silence can be a behavior as well.”

Denver: Okay, so I’m aware of the emotions. Now, what I need to do is manage, Emotion Management.

Jean: Yes. Now, emotion management at a team level is the ability to continually make the most productive next choices. This is around whether the team needs to take a break, or whether someone is speaking and getting interrupted. These are the behaviors. And I typically will define a behavior as what you say or do, or don’t say when you should have. So silence can be a behavior as well.

And teams often allow emotions to get the best of them or to take over in the room, and suddenly you have spent 35 minutes venting about a frustrating situation, right? But that’s another example, is if you’re managing your emotions, maybe someone on the team can say: You know what? Let’s cut ourselves off after about 10 minutes and move on so you can get it out of your system.

But also not let it take over the next steps for the group. So I look at emotion management at a team level as a skill where only one person in the room has to recognize: Oh, something needs to be said or done. Not everybody has to be in their highest EQ moment to be able to pull off Team EQ. And that’s kind of the beauty of being aware of all of these different little skills and actions you can take.

Denver: Yeah, it sounds like  that one person can give permission to the rest of the group and also just point them in that direction. Sort of, like: Look over there, and you begin to put your gaze there, and you begin to think about it.

Well, one thing I loved about the book is that in each of these four pillars, you have about a dozen or so wonderful strategies, and you explain them in a very clear and forthright way.

Under Emotion Management, one of them would be: focus on healthy reactions to change. And that’s a big one these days, I think, because everybody that I talk to, Jean, really is being challenged by change management.

This change that we are seeing in our society, in our organizations, in our workforces, it’s really moving along and that reaction to change has been a challenge. Speak a little bit about how you need to think about that in your emotion management.

Jean: Yeah. And I’ll think back before we were all working in offices or with our nonprofit organizations, a change in our environment could mean a threat. So our brains and bodies are wired to pick up on and notice a change.

And we typically are thinking: Okay, is this change going to be a threat to me? Now, in our office worlds and our professional work worlds, those threats can be: Am I going to lose pride, or am I going to lose status? Am I going to have a project or my budget taken? So…

Denver: Or my paycheck.

Jean: Yeah, paycheck, job stability, all kinds of threats. So our minds are constantly scanning the environment, and reactions can be the gamut. It can be sort of denial and pretending it’s not. Example, people can withdraw and not really participate in the group if they’re considering: “Well, I’m not valued anymore. I’m going to lose this project, so why should I bother?”

At a team level, team members can check in with one another and allow an opportunity to think through: What can we control?  What do we have the ability to make a mark on? We can also support each other.

So the process is not only recognizing: How do I typically react to change? But the next steps immediately after that is to think through what is a productive next step as I continually determine whether this is truly a threat or not.

Denver: No, that’s good advice. I sometimes, for myself, Jean, I always ask myself, what’s the worst possible thing that could happen here? And I’m surprised to find out, it  ain’t as bad as I kind of was feeling, you know?

Jean: Right. Yes.

Denver: I kind of have exaggerated it in my mind, and then you also realize that the worst possible outcome is probably not going to happen. Maybe not the best, but it’s going to be somewhere in between. But it kind of grounds you because some of that fear, I think, that you feel about the change can be irrational.

Well, of these four skills or pillars, two of them have to do with emotions. The other two have to do with relationships. So let’s start with Internal Team Relationships.

Jean: Right. Now, this is the kind of skill that most people who’ve been a member of a team have experienced a little bit of, now and again. They may join a team and be invited to some type of social event, or a team may go out on a retreat. But over time, teams typically will sort of settle into their methods and habits and almost forget to attune to the dyad relationships and the triads within the team, as well as the whole group.

So for a team that’s going to be facing challenges and newly formed, they may want to think through intentionally what they’re going to do to do sort of that caring/feeding of the relationships within the group. So that when those challenges hit, they’ve got the bonds, they know how to read one another; they know how to address a difficult conversation.

So the strategies in this book give a team an opportunity to skim through and say, “Are we attending to these relationships in the way we should?  And if we haven’t, maybe here are two or three things we should spend some time on.” And some of them can be really fun.

Denver: Yeah. Well, like what can be fun?

Jean: Well, when you think about team bonding, there is the team retreat, right? Where people try to figure out what they’re going to sort of accomplish. Let’s revisit our mission statement or this or that, but building in an opportunity to really get to know one another, in a relaxed, away-from-the- office environment.

The other is to encourage a climate of laughter. Positive emotions are just as contagious as negative ones. So if you have someone on your team who happens to be sort of a natural at lightening the mood, that should not be discouraged.

And you can tap into these team members’ strengths differently. Not everybody is funny, but the one who is, they can just sort of say the right thing at the right time and sort of lighten the mood.

Denver: Yeah. I love what you say about laughter. I find that to be such a way to build social bonds. And it’s often, the things that happen within a team that we laugh at, if they were said someplace else, like in your kitchen at eight o’clock at night, they wouldn’t be that funny.

But it’s the dynamic of the moment in the team that we’re all hysterical about it, and that really is just because we like each other, you know?

Jean: Yeah. Yeah.

Denver: I mean, there’s a closeness to that. I do find  laughter to be the probably most underrated aspect of a good, healthy workplace culture. You don’t find many workplace cultures which are bad, where people are laughing.

Jean: Yes. Yeah, that’s really true. And we have very small suggestions and recommendations in this book, things like: How do you use words of support for each other? Now, everybody would agree with that statement, but does every team take the moment to figure out: Well, what are the words of support that really help us?

Some teams need confidence. Some teams need a little kick in the pants. But being aware of which ones are helpful at what time is  worthwhile discussion. And the last one I’ll mention that I think is really fun is having a team member know when to point out when you have successfully pulled something off in the past.

Don’t forget when you’ve had your wins in the past. And sometimes, just in a quick conversation reminding everybody of that can boost their energy and patience for that next challenge that’s coming to them.

Denver: Sure. We’ve been in worse spots before and come through, and therefore, you know the sense that it looks impossible now. Everything looks like a failure in the middle, but do you remember when?

Jean: I know. Right.

Denver: And that really helped.

Let me just say on the other side of that though, what about tough conversations and conflict… because that’s one of your strategies. And you know that’s one of the things that people just… it’s insidious because people avoid it. And it doesn’t mean because you haven’t had that conversation, that problem is going to go away; it’s just going to manifest itself in far more destructive ways.

Jean: Yeah. So I want to begin this part of our conversation by pointing out that difficult emotions are things like anger, or feeling defensive, or that person just has a caustic tone. Those words conjure up of like, Ooh, I don’t like being around that. So the minute that kind of emotion enters your team’s space, many team members are sort of looking at the door or the exit button on their Zoom, trying to think: How do I get away from this?

But remember that things being defensive or anger is really the other person’s emotion, and your physiology is catching that mood. That doesn’t mean you have to absorb it and internalize it. You can let it sort of pass by you like the wind, and let the person be the one who owns that emotion. So that’s one thing I’ll say about these difficult discussions and conflict.

At a team level when conflict surfaces, one of the things that can really help is someone being able to offer up what I call a “fix-it statement.” This comes from research by a group of researchers who really understood that when someone says, “You know what, this is a really difficult conversation, and you and I are not agreeing on what should be done next.”

We’ve had these before, and I know we’re going to get to a solution for our next step. Something along the line that inserts confidence, that there is an out to this. And anyone can say it. It doesn’t have to be the person who started the conflict or the person that the conflict is directed at. It could be someone else sitting at the table as well.

Sometimes the team has to simply buy some time, say, “You know, I think we ought to maybe take a day and think this through and circle back around.” Or it can even be within a meeting. “Let’s take a break, I’ll go get a drink.” Sometimes emotions run high when you’ve all forgotten to eat lunch and you’re sort of irritable. Those kinds of things that can get in the way.

So when there’s more than just two in the interaction, you’ve got many more people attending to what’s going to help in this moment. And that’s what I would recommend, is for teams to work through these strategies and say, Which ones might work for us? And just try to take these small steps.

Denver: Yeah, that makes sense. A)  It makes sense to step away sometimes. And the other thing that you suggest is context and perspective. Sometimes you get so caught up in this moment, in this conversation, you almost don’t remember how insignificant it is. It becomes like the World War or something.

You take a step back and you say, “Let’s look at this in the context of what we’re doing.”  And you begin to rightsize it and realize: Well, it’s not as much as what I was thinking five minutes ago.

Jean: Yeah. If a team can get to that kind of a moment where they’re not flaring into kind of an argument, one interesting method is for someone to say, “Let’s look at this from a third-party perspective. If we were to help some other group solving this, what would we even recommend to them?”

So you’re almost talking about yourselves in the third person, and that can give you a little distance and a new perspective. And one final way to get a new perspective is to invite someone in from outside your team who might have more information that you don’t have that can be helpful to you.

“This is an underrated, often forgotten skill when it comes to dealing with your team’s ability to achieve results, and that is: your team does not typically operate in a vacuum. So how your team is interacting with individuals who come visit your team, and other teams that you bump into on a regular basis, is really key and important.”

Denver: Yeah. No, that’s good advice.

Finally, we have external team relationships.

Jean: Yes. This is an underrated, often forgotten skill when it comes to dealing with your team’s ability to achieve results, and that is: your team does not typically operate in a vacuum. So how your team is interacting with individuals who come visit your team, and other teams that you bump into on a regular basis, is really key and important. And those who think about how they’re going to foster those relationships can get farther faster.

Denver: Yeah. And it’s always good, I guess as you suggest, to link whatever you’re doing to the greater good. Not just have it for what your team is trying to do, but really connect it to the overall vision and mission of the organization.

Jean: Yeah, that’s when a team starts to have influence in a broader space. When you think about nonprofits, you have the board and volunteers and staff, different departments within the staff team. So these are all smaller groups that are attending to a piece of this larger puzzle, creating greater good in the world.

So how you think about when you’re operating and moving in that space, you don’t want to do it at the expense of another team. You don’t want to win at their expense, right? So you’re inviting them in and understanding what challenges they face may allow you to ask them for help when your resources are tight, or your time is really short. So yeah, that’s what we mean by sort of accessing and investing in these relationships with groups.

Denver: Jean, how do companies and organizations go about activating this process? They look at this conceptual framework, which is fabulous, I will add, but then what they have to do is they say, Okay, I’ve read the book, I’ve looked at the literature. I have a sort of an understanding here.

How do I get started? How do I implement this? How do I monitor this? How do I know that we’re really making progress? What are some of the ways that you would suggest that a team or an organization go about doing that?

Jean: Yes. Now, I said at the beginning that in the field of emotional intelligence within a person, the best route to behavior change is repeat, repeat, repeat because it creates new neural connections. That’s how you form that next unconscious habit that you don’t even have to think about it because you do it so well.

For a team, we suggest that a group get together after having read the book and pick one skill area that you’d like to kind of dive in together. And as you said, there’s maybe 12, 15 strategies suggested for how we manage our emotions. Let’s say it’s emotion management that you pick first.

And just pick three of these strategies that you’re going to spend the next month really attending to and putting into practice, and give it a little time, and then place on your team agendas a chance to check in. Like, how is it going? Are we doing better at sort of like catching ourselves from interrupting one another, as an example?

I like to think of our fiscal year as four quarters, and you might even consider these four skills as moving through them each quarter of one annual year. It gives the team time to really get familiar and not race through and think you can…

Denver: That’s a very sound suggestion. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Jean: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Denver: Let me ask you something that drives so many people crazy… maybe you have a thought on it, is: what do you do when there’s one or two members that absolutely dominate the group, take up all the airtime, cut people off? This is something which I know a lot of our listeners can identify with or relate to. What advice would you have in that case?

Jean: Okay, so with Team EQ skills, there are different roles. There is a role of a team leader, and I’m not going to say that they have no responsibility in sort of managing group dynamics. But it doesn’t have to be the team leader who’s responsible for this. A team can revisit the norms that have evolved informally, and become intentional about what are the norms our group are going to value.

So let’s just say your team hasn’t done that in a while. If there’s a couple of team members that have noticed this, you could place that as a norm. Like I want in this group that everyone is heard, so let’s make it a team norm that we’re going to check in with the quieter members. So do we have all agreement that when that happens, we’ll all allow it?

Because usually those that are dominating, they’re not necessarily even aware that they’re doing it. Or if they are, there’s been no accountability, so they just keep doing it. So you can put into action a couple of things that will allow for you to call them on it without sort of putting them in their place. You don’t want to make someone feel publicly shamed, but you might get…

Denver: No, I get you. If they didn’t…

Jean: If you put in a norm, you can say, you know, “Hey, I want to make sure you have a chance to finish your thoughts later, but we haven’t checked in with these others over here.” And if you make that a team norm, it’s much easier.

Denver: Right. It’s not me criticizing you, it’s the team agreement. Make the team…

Jean: Exactly.

Denver: …the team agreement, the enemy.

It is funny with people like that, I think a lot of them are unaware. You look at a lot of leaders, and you ask them when they meet with their staff, what’s their share of voice? How much of the talking they’re doing? And they’ll say maybe 60%, and then somebody will tape them, “Oh, 91%. Really? I had no idea.”

Jean: Right. And it’s easy to point fingers, but if there’s a team of eight, and two are dominating, there’s six other people participating in that dynamic. So six is more than two. If they put their heads together, it’s got to be something they can do to, you know…

Denver: Yeah, you’re right. And I’ve seen those dynamics, and they can become difficult because the people who, of those six who do talk, they are very short because they know they’re going to be interrupted. So instead of laying out a point thoughtfully, they just try to get it in there because they know they’ve got like 12 seconds before…

Jean: Yeah. Now there’s one other strategy, which is: a team can identify who in the group the talkers tend to listen to.  And I don’t mean in the team, but who they sort of respect outside that team meeting. That person may be able to circle around and do a little informal colleague to colleague coaching.

So priming the readiness for the talker outside the meeting so next time they’re in the moment, they’re sort of thinking about things differently as well. That can help.

Denver: Yeah, that can be…

Jean, you’re one of the leading experts in team emotional intelligence in the world, so let me ask you this. How has that changed, if at all, since COVID and remote? Are the dynamics the same, or have we needed to bring in some new thinking as to how to do it particularly well?

Jean: Well, with COVID, we have both virtual and hybrid gatherings. So the virtual and the hybrid is placing a new barrier into those natural… being able to pick up on what we feel viscerally. We have a lot of eye gazing going on on screens. With hybrid, I don’t know if you’ve attended hybrid meetings. It’s: How do you make sure someone on screen isn’t ignored as you’re suddenly interacting with the people around a table.

So it takes a little more intentional time management, interaction type of management, and that can be exhausting. So teams should pat themselves on the backs for even having done as much as we have. And I would recommend: Don’t forget those breakout chat rooms. Don’t forget to, after a meeting, pick up the phone and call someone who you noticed was maybe a little checked out.

You might find out, Oh, it wasn’t that they weren’t in agreement. They weren’t retreating from what was being discussed. Suddenly, they have relatives, and they turned their… they’re trying to be respectful and turn the sound off, but they have extended family in their home.

Denver: Like a dog is chewing their purse. You know what I mean?

Jean: Yeah.

Denver: Those things that are happening. One technique that I found very effective on these hybrid meetings is… organizations I work with, I always try to have the team leader be remote. I never have the team leader be at headquarters, but be remote. And that really tends to even up the playing field really well.

And I think the other thing that I’ve seen work well is keeping the Zoom call open, 10 minutes before the meeting and 10 minutes after the meeting. Because that’s one of the things that I really miss when I’m in an organization. And if you’re the CEO and you say something, I like going back to the office with a colleague saying,  “Is Jean out of her mind? She wants us to do… she wants us to do what by when?”

Jean: Yes.

Denver: Really miss that, you know?

Jean: Yeah. Those are the…

Denver: It’s more of a debrief. Yeah.

Jean: Yeah. Those are the water cooler discussions. That’s where the laughter suddenly resurfaces.

Denver: Yeah.

Jean: And it gives people a moment to kind of process what just happened. So yeah, the 10 minutes before, 10 minutes after is a wonderful virtual method for that.

Denver: If you had one tip to give a leader in terms of emotional intelligence, what would you give them in terms of being emotionally intelligent online?

Jean: They set the tone, so be mindful of how your frustrations in a day might surface, and just name it. Not in terms of like, I’m mad at you right now. It’s like it’s more giving people sort of a quick little manual on how to read them. So they might say, “Hey, if you notice me coming across as a bit distracted today, it’s because I’ve got this call this afternoon and it’s kind of on my mind.” Suddenly you feel everyone else relax a little.

Denver: That’s great advice.

Jean: Oh, okay. Now they know how to read you. And I think as a leader, when you model that, others will begin as well. And everybody doing that really helps the team.

Denver: Yeah, it’s like advertising and letting them know exactly what it is.

Let me turn to a different subject for a moment, and that is: you are the chairperson of Survivors of Torture, International. Tell us a little bit about the organization and of its work.

Jean: Oh, yeah. We’re based in San Diego, and it sounds like we’re doing work around the world when we’re really doing all of our work here in the city for those who have arrived in the United States, from countries around the world, and for whatever reason have experienced state-sanctioned torture.

And we provide them the mental health and the medical health, and to help them sort of reintegrate into the communities that they live in. San Diego is often a place where people stop and then move to another city, so we provide both short-term but long-term support for people to reemerge and feel safe and become our neighbors, and join us in our workplaces and in our schools.

Denver: Right. That’s fantastic.

Let me close with this, and I’m going to stick with that subject a little bit. I have found that although many members of boards, particularly nonprofit boards, look at themselves as individuals. You’re really not going to have an effective board unless they consider themselves to be part of a team.

What do you do to promote emotional intelligence on your board at Survivors?

Jean: I’m a person who, I don’t know how many authors you speak to, but we authors are often introverts and don’t want to be sort of lecturing to people about our books. So in an informal way, as you mentioned, the showing up early, I use the term “we” quite a bit.

I do call board members in and around. There’s a lot of care, and we’ve become colleagues, but friends, over the last six years. And quite a bit of that has to do with allowing for the interpersonal discussions to come into what the task is at hand.

So the bonding has been really valued on our board, I would say, part of what I value and spend time with each board member, allowing them to pick, you know: “Do you really want to contribute  to governance? Do you want to contribute to fundraising?” And allowing some shifts here and there, rather than you must be assigned here and there.

Yeah, I think it’s how we operate without me naming it the way I am today with you. I’m almost like a Team EQ infiltrator, and I think any team member can do that.

Denver: Yeah. That is great. Well, the book is Team Emotional Intelligence 2.0. It is a wonderful read. Sometimes you think of a book like that and say: This is going to be work. It wasn’t work. It was absolutely very breezy and very practical, and I really enjoyed it. And I know our listeners will as well, on a subject which is so important to the success of their organizations.

I want to thank you, Jean, for being here today. It was an absolute delight to have you on the program.

Jean: It was a fun conversation. Thank you.

Denver Frederick, Host of The Business of Giving serves as a Trusted Advisor and Executive Coach to Nonprofit Leaders. His Book, The Business of Giving: New Best Practices for Nonprofit and Philanthropic Leaders in an Uncertain World, is available now on Amazon and Barnes & Noble.

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