The following is a conversation between Louise Dubé, Executive Director of iCivics, and Denver Frederick, Host of The Business of Giving on AM 970 The Answer in New York City.
Denver: You might be surprised to learn that the first woman ever appointed to serve on the Supreme Court of the United States considers her greatest legacy to be a video game. But that is the importance that Supreme Court Justice, Sandra Day O’Connor, places on having an informed citizenry and a democracy. The name of the organization behind these games is iCivics, and it’s a pleasure to have with us their Executive Director, Louise Dube. Good evening, Louise, and welcome to The Business of Giving.
Louise Dubé
Louise: Thank you very much for having me. It’s my pleasure to be here with you.
Denver: Sandra Day O’Connor founded iCivics in 2009 when she was just about 80 years old. Now, you don’t often think of people that age starting an organization where a video game will be its centerpiece. How did this come about?
Louise: It’s really an amazing story. Justice O’Connor was really convinced that the future of democracy rests on having its youngest citizens take up the role of citizen. In that, we as adults have an obligation, every generation, to educate them. And then she went around and looked at what was working and what was not and how we could do it. And she happened to be surrounded by one of her former clerks, Julie O’Sullivan, and as a professor at Georgetown Law School. Julie had a son at that time, Ben, who was playing video games. They got together. She saw how he interacted with video games, and she was like, “That’s it.” We actually have the picture of her with Julie and her son, and it really is an amazing thing..that she was open to that.
She had never, of course, opened much of a computer in her lifetime. She had clerks and other staff to do that. But she really saw the power. She also met with Jim Gee, a professor – probably the father of educational gaming. And he was really able to convince her that that process of engagement– where you can actually simulate something in real life, but at scale, for every kid in America– is the way to engage them in the beginning of what their role will be as citizens.
Denver: That speaks so well of Justice O’Connor. We always thought so highly of her to begin with, and you now you have another Supreme Court Justice involved with the organization.
Louise: We do. Justice Sotomayor is on our board. Has served for three years. We also work with other members of the Court. Obviously, Justice Souter has been a big proponent of civic education. We have worked with Justice Gorsuch as well. It is very dear to the Court’s heart.
If you look at the Nation’s Report Card, NAEP, you’ll find that we– in Civics– score at the lowest rate. Only second to History. In History, our kids are proficient at about 18%, and in Civics, it’s 23%. So, not much better. Most kids, many Americans even, cannot name one of the branches of government. Most can name all Three Stooges, but not a branch of government. So, it’s really a very difficult situation that we’re walking into. And we’re not giving civics education the time and the classroom it deserves. We are actually going in the wrong direction.
Denver: Most listeners probably know that civics education has been pushed a little bit to the side by things like STEM. And young people don’t know what they should about government. But what does the research indicate in terms of their understanding of basic Civics?
Louise: It’s incredibly poor. If you look at the Nation’s Report Card, NAEP, you’ll find that we– in Civics– score at the lowest rate. Only second to History. In History, our kids are proficient at about 18%, and in Civics, it’s 23%. So, not much better. Most kids, many Americans even, cannot name one of the branches of government. Most can name all Three Stooges, but not a branch of government. So, it’s really a very difficult situation that we’re walking into. And we’re not giving civics education the time and the classroom it deserves. We are actually going in the wrong direction.
So, at the elementary level, we have gone from about 10% of the time of the classroom down to 7% since 2004, and we need to change that. I actually feel like we’re at a different stage now, and there is momentum. But I think there’s nowhere to go but up.
We also seek out feedback from kids. Every time we build either a new or an upgraded game, we go out to classrooms and try this at different settings. So, different kinds of kids will have different kinds of feedback, so we get them to try out an early version of the game and let them tell us what they think. That’s a nice and collaborative feedback, and I love to see those sessions.
Denver: I’d be curious, and we’re going to get to a couple of the games specifically. But how do you create an appropriate game for the iCivics library? Now, I understand the needs of the developer, but how do you include both the teachers and the students in the development process?
Louise: That’s very interesting. We have a process that’s interesting. We start with the learning standards. We first start by understanding that a teacher’s job is to teach a certain set of curriculum that’s required, and that curriculum and the expectations are governed by a set of standards. From those standards, we make sure that at the end of the game, the students will have learned the content and the curriculum that was designed, that was prescribed. That’s where we start.
We also have 160 volunteer educators that are part of our network, the educator network. They are all over the United States in all states. And they apply every year to be a volunteer with us, and we love them very dearly. So, we talk to them on a regular or constant basis and try to get feedback from them to integrate their perspectives, talk to them. We also for new games or for when we redo a game, we have a smaller set of people, both researchers and teachers, who help us come up with new ways to engage students. So, it’s an ongoing and collaborative process.
We also seek out feedback from kids. Every time we build either a new or an upgraded game, we go out to classrooms and try this at different settings. So, different kinds of kids will have different kinds of feedback, so we get them to try out an early version of the game and let them tell us what they think. That’s a nice and collaborative feedback, and I love to see those sessions.
Denver: You have to have those sessions. I’ll tell you what’s hot today will be cold tomorrow. They’re the ones who are going to know, not us. That’s for sure.
What grades do you focus on? And how many students did you reach last year?
Louise: Last year, we reached 5 million students, which is about half of where we want to be. We consider 10 million roughly to be the totality of the population we want to reach. In terms of grades, we started at the middle school level. Justice O’Connor’s thought was you need to get them early. Civics is pretty hard to read. We have a lot of big words. So, we didn’t want to start too early. Middle school was really our sweet spot.
From there, we’ve expanded up to the high school. Most of Civics is taught at the high school level. So, that’s where we are now focusing. We are developing new resources for high schoolers. But then there are many kids; my kid – I started this because my son, Daniel, played iCivics completely independently in fourth grade. His teacher assigned it as homework. It was Win the White House actually in 2012, and he was in fourth grade. Many kids play it earlier. When they have the reading skills, they can access the game. So, we go all the way through third, fourth, fifth grade, all the way through high school.
– it simulates a process that you could not simulate in a classroom. It would be too hard for a teacher to set that up in her classroom without the aid of technology. And that’s really where iCivics’s sweet spot really is – try to take those complex processes of government in our system and make them easy to access for all kids in the United States, so that they build an understanding of how our system works, and they find it interesting.
Denver: Win the White House was a game that got an enormous amount of attention a couple of years ago. It’s actually where I first became aware of iCivics. How do you play Win the White House?
Louise: You are a candidate, and you are trying to win the national election. So, you can declare yourself to be a Democrat or a Republican. You have to pick a platform. You can even be a maverick. So, you can have your platform be a Republican platform, but have some Democratic issues in your platform. And then you have, by playing, to figure out how our system works. So, that’s really the sense of educational games. We’re not going to tell you how it works. You’re going to have to figure it out yourself.
So, you’re going to probably figure out that it’s probably best to go to the big states; you’re going to figure out that electoral college votes is what matters, and you’re going to figure out that you’re going to have to visit the states. And you’re going to have to put in appearances in different ways. You’re going to have to decide how much of your campaign budget you’re going to spend on ads.
So, this is a fairly complex game, and it really replicates something – it simulates a process that you could not simulate in a classroom. It would be too hard for a teacher to set that up in her classroom without the aid of technology. And that’s really where iCivics’s sweet spot really is – try to take those complex processes of government in our system and make them easy to access for all kids in the United States, so that they build an understanding of how our system works, and they find it interesting.
So, what happened to Daniel, after playing Win the White House, I saw him pay attention to politics in a way that he never had before, and he since joined the debate team. Clearly Daniel would have had a lot of opportunities, but we want to make sure that these opportunities are accessible to all kids. That’s really the point, and that’s how we do it. We open up that lightbulb towards what our system of government means to them. Make it relevant to kids.
Denver: Although, I don’t think Daniel would be a control group. I’m sure he got a little bit of help from his mom.
Louise: He does want to be a lawyer.
It’s an incredibly difficult game. I will not say who, but one Supreme Court Justice actually picked the wrong answer once. It’s actually quite difficult to get it right. It is very useful in trying to build those critical thinking skills that a student has in every discipline of life. That’s what’s great about civic education. It trains you to know about our system of government and the rule of law, but it also trains you to think in a proper and disciplined way… just like a lawyer would.
Denver: There’s been a lot of attention this year on the Supreme Court, and I would imagine with several Supreme Court justices involved, you probably have a game or two about that. What are those?
Louise: Supreme Decision, where you can play as a Supreme Court Justice. We have several law-related games; one called, Argument Wars, which is very popular in AP Government classes, where you have to pick the best evidence. It’s an incredibly difficult game. I will not say who, but one Supreme Court Justice actually picked the wrong answer once. It’s actually quite difficult to get it right. It is very useful in trying to build those critical thinking skills that a student has in every discipline of life. That’s what’s great about civic education. It trains you to know about our system of government and the rule of law, but it also trains you to think in a proper and disciplined way… just like a lawyer would.
…the students start to understand how complex these public policy questions are, even in their own towns. We use that game often to start the process of students doing actual projects in their community. We simulate this experience, and then they get exposed to actual projects in their communities, and they take an interest. That process of action-reaction– meaning that the students do something and get a result– is what has been shown by research to be effective long term. So, that’s that sort of cycle of, “You’re More Powerful than You Think,” which is a book by Eric Liu. And that process that kids feel– that way that they have some power and some relevance in the world is what we need to engage them in the process.
Denver: Maybe we should be using these games during the hearings to vet candidates.
Anything local? Because the way kids can get involved and students get involved is probably at the local level. Do you have anything around that?
Louise: It is probably my favorite game, County Solutions is a game where you are the County Executive, and residents come to you and ask you questions like: Where do I get my driver’s license? And also there are opportunities to grow your town or your county, investment opportunities, and then you resolve problems. So, “There’s a pothole on my street, and how much is it going to cost to fix this pothole? And what benefit is it going to be for the county?” You have your tax base; you have your budget. You cannot go over your budget unless you raise taxes. It sort of creates that accountability mentality that students…everything has a cost and a benefit, and the student is asked to make those tradeoffs every time that a decision comes to them.
And in four years, you have to be re-elected. If you do not have 50% approval rating, you’re not likely to get… and you will not get re-elected. So, the students start to understand how complex these public policy questions are, even in their own towns. We use that game often to start the process of students doing actual projects in their community. We simulate this experience, and then they get exposed to actual projects in their communities, and they take an interest. That process of action-reaction– meaning that the students do something and get a result — is what has been shown by research to be effective long term. So, that’s that sort of cycle of ” You’re More Powerful than You Think,” which is a book by Eric Liu. And that process that kids feel– that way that they have some power and some relevance in the world is what we need to engage them in the process.
Denver: These games start the process. But that process continues. What kind of support do you provide teachers to continue that conversation in the classroom?
Louise: That is absolutely the critical thing about iCivics. A lot of resources are very helpful. But they are not helpful if they are not surrounded by support materials, so that the teacher has easy access. We’re talking about a teacher’s biggest concern — is time so she can, or he can, take our materials and easily execute. So, they get in some cases a PowerPoint presentation where we activate learning to start the classroom discussion. Then the kids play the game, and then we have created some topics of discussion so that there can be a whole class discussion after, so they can apply the learning that they’ve gained through our games to the real world.
So, we make that process seamless for the teacher. We also have over 170 lesson plans. That lesson plan is a way for her to go beyond the games. We have created interactive activities. For example, in one case, students will create laws about the regulation of drugs, for example, whatever, some topic that is relevant to them and is linked to a standard, and they will actually take an activity, and we will make that very, very simple for teachers. That’s what iCivics is known for, in making a lot of the civic content available to teachers in an easy-to-use way. We also provide professional development for educators who sometimes are being asked to teach Civics. In many cases, they really want it, and many of them do not have easy access to civics content, so we teach both the content and the pedagogy and the vocabulary for civics so that they can benefit from our experience or gain experience about how best to teach Civics.
Louise Dubé and Denver Frederick inside the studio
Denver: Speaking of easy access, you’ve put some of your more popular games on apps, so that they can get them on their phones and their iPads, or tablets.
Louise: Not on the phones, but on tablets. So that across all the different platforms– Android, Google, and so on. Yes, they can play the games. As you know in the classroom, we’ve seen an explosion of these devices. So, we’re trying to make it easy for teachers to use our resources, whatever their platform might be.
Denver: I know, Louise, you create these games to be nonpartisan. But that can also be difficult in such a partisan age. People might look at some of the cases you did with the Supreme Court and say, “Why did they pick those cases?” You know how people are. Have you run into any partisan pushback in different areas of the country?
Louise: We have not for the most part, but I think it’s increasingly hard. A lot of teachers during the election were told that they could not teach the election because the principals were afraid in this polarized environment. At this stage, I’m hearing more and more teachers want to teach the content, and they are thankful that we are presenting the content from a basis of fact. What happened? Why? So, why did we pick these court cases? Because there were no learning standards. That’s how we make our decision.
We try — for example, in Executive Command, one of our games about being the president — we try to present the issues; some issues are what might be more associated with the right position, and some might be associated more with the left. But students are able to pick and explore those issues as they wish. So, we try to be balanced, and we try to create the opportunity for classroom discussion that’s based in how the system actually works. That’s how we get around it. Is it easy? For teachers, no. It’s not easy at all. They are facing polarized classrooms to start with. But we hope that having the kids go through our content first helps them to manage a civil discussion with all the kids together after.
But we have to be realistic that in some cases, some of the kids will obviously express opinions that are polarizing, and there is no way around that because otherwise, it’s not relevant.
Our answer to teachers has been,”You may be right – that the system is not working the way that you would like, or even as it is imagined or should have been.” And I think that’s why we’re doing the work that we are. “We are doing this work with you to try to get you to understand that this democracy is not going to work without all of us leaning into it. So if you don’t see the system working in the way that you think it should work, then I urge you to either get your parents to get involved or ultimately get involved in some, even in small ways in your communities, and start the process of being an active citizen.”
Denver: What about cognitive dissonance, and I say that in the fact that you’re teaching them Civics and how the government works, but then they go home at night, and they turn on the TV and they see what’s going on in Washington. There is always that separation between what I’ve learned. “My gosh, they’re not doing any of that here!” Is there any cynicism around that at all?
Louise: I think that has to be acknowledged. The reality is that you don’t want to get too far out from what the reality of the world is, or else kids will think you’re completely irrelevant. Our answer to teachers has been, “You may be right – that the system is not working the way that you would like, or even as it is imagined or should have been.” And I think that’s why we’re doing the work that we are. “We are doing this work with you to try to get you to understand that this democracy is not going to work without all of us leaning into it. So, if you don’t see the system working in the way that you think it should work, then I urge you to either get your parents to get involved or ultimately get involved in some, even in small ways in your communities, and start the process of being an active citizen. It doesn’t take much. It takes doing small things, caring for your neighbor, looking after other people, and living your life according to values and principles that we as Americans do.” That’s been our answer. Is it enough? Sometimes not. But that’s the only way out of this. Yes, it is a long-term process.
Denver: Louise, only about 20% of young people who are learning English have even a rudimentary understanding of Civics, and that’s a very important population. What are you doing to reach them?
Louise: We obviously, as we mentioned before, Justice Sotomayor joined our board. It is incredibly important to her that we reach English language learners. These are kids who will face particular difficulties in Civics because of the academic vocabulary that we use. “Amendment,” it doesn’t matter if you translate it into Spanish. It is still not an easy concept to understand. So, it’s not even enough to translate.
What we have done is we have taken our game, several of our games, and we have translated them into Spanish, but also provided definitions in their native language so that students from a Spanish background can know what these concepts mean. And you can play either in English or in Spanish, and you can switch back and forth so that when you become more familiar, you can play in English easily.
We also offer support for teachers of English language learners. We have such great feedback from our group of English language educators that these resources are helpful. We still do not have enough of our games in Spanish. We are doing them one by one. But we are hoping to continue the process and have all of our games translated into Spanish.
Denver: And it’s important to note that all this content is for free. So, that puts a little bit of pressure on your business model to generate the money to operate. Who are some of your key partners and supporters?
Louise: We are supported by wonderful institutional funders; Carnegie, McCormick Foundation, the Hewlett Foundation. These are some of the great supporters of iCivics over the years. You’re absolutely right. This is a very difficult business model. Our goal has been to change the business model to rely a little bit less on institutional funders and a little bit more on individual donors. This is not an easy shift transition.
Then there is also the issue of earned revenue. We have not cracked that nut yet. But it is something that we will need to do over time. My goal, certainly when I came to iCivics, is to secure Justice O’Connor’s legacy forever. So, we have to set up iCivics in a way that will sustain itself long term. So, we’ve been very successful at that from an institutional funding perspective, but I don’t think that’s the answer long term. We are in that shift. We’ve been very successful this year. Over 35% of our income came from individual donors. So, that’s wonderful. We need to expand that, and we need to create a greater percentage of earned revenue.
Denver: There’s only so many institutional donors, and there’s a lot of individuals.
You’re headquartered up in Cambridge, Massachusetts. Tell us about your corporate culture. What makes it really special? How do you maintain it when the organization has been scaling so fast?
Louise: That is such a great question. We are mainly female. We have a lot of former teachers with us. I would describe our corporate culture; I really value our team. It is incredible. It is the best team I’ve ever worked with. They are both enthusiastic and competent. Dynamic and realistic. That’s the combination. It’s pretty much the iCivics brand. A little bit edgy, but also fun, engaging; folks are supportive of each other.
We do a lot through our team, through our team structure. Meeting lots of different people, different hands working on the same project. One of the key aspects is to have somebody who’s focused on internal processes when you’re talking about growth. So, we brought on Sue Meehan, our COO/CFO, and she focuses on building those institutional structures so that it is less reliant on any one individual, but a culture is now operationalized in a set of structures. That’s the process that we are going in right now in order to meet the demand of explosion in Civics and in civic education. As you know, we are also taking on a bigger, broader mission for the whole field, and that’s what’s putting pressure on our team to grow and to become less dependent on any one leader, and to own the mission together.
…what we really think of as our mission is to turn on the lightbulb so that the process of students understanding that the government is relevant to them, and the rule of law is relevant to them, opens up this lifelong involvement in political process and system of government. One of the research efforts that one third party did showed that 45% of the kids who were exposed to iCivics in the classroom went home and actually played it unprompted.
The “I” in iCivics, it is “I make these decisions.” In iCivics, you’re always at the center of the action. You are making the decision, and I hope that kids feel that ultimately, they are the center of our democracy.
Denver: Let me close with this Louise. What has been the impact of iCivics on students knowing the basic facts about the United States political system, understanding campaign issues, having opinions about those issues, and even becoming involved in the political process?
Louise: We’ve had several third-party, independent research efforts that have shown increases in civic knowledge. But the one that’s most important to me is that what we really think of as our mission is to turn on the lightbulb so that the process of students understanding that the government is relevant to them, and the rule of law is relevant to them, opens up this lifelong involvement in political process and system of government.
One of the research efforts that one third party did showed that 45% of the kids who were exposed to iCivics in the classroom went home and actually played it unprompted. So that process of engagement without prompts from your parents or anybody else is really what we’re looking for. They don’t have to play it forever, but they have to want and find that process engaging. We’re proudest of that. And it demonstrates that kind of process of “I’m important.” The “I” in iCivics: it is “I make these decisions.” In iCivics, you’re always at the center of the action. You are making the decision, and I hope that kids feel that ultimately, they are the center of our democracy.
Denver: It turns out, there are a lot of other Daniels out there. Louise Dube, the Executive Director of iCivics. I want to thank you so much for being on the show this evening. Where can people find out more about these video games or become one of those individual donors you’re looking for?
Louise: What a great question! Thank you for that one. iCivics.org is super easy. You can play your games right there without registering, without doing anything. Play our games. If you’re a teacher, you should sign up and register for a free account that opens up the world of all of iCivics’ resources, and then at the top, there is a Donate Now button. Please, if you can help us out, every dollar is put to good use to build materials for the classroom. Appreciate the opportunity. Thank you so much.
Denver: Great to have you on the show. Thanks so much for being here, Louise.
Louise: Thank you.
Denver: I’ll be back with more of The Business of Giving right after this.
Louise Dubé and Denver Frederick
The Business of Giving can be heard every Sunday evening between 6:00 p.m. and 7:00 p.m. Eastern on AM 970 The Answer in New York and on iHeartRadio. You can follow us @bizofgive on Twitter, @bizofgive on Instagram and at www.facebook.com/businessofgiving.