The following is a conversation between Miriam Altman, co-founder and CEO of Kinvolved, and Denver Frederick, Host of The Business of Giving on AM 970 The Answer in New York City.
Denver: It has been said that 90% of success is just showing up, and while that might be a slight exaggeration, it is a big part of it, especially when it comes to school. Yet, up to one-third of student populations in high-poverty urban areas are chronically absent. When my next guest observed that and the impact it had on things like graduation rates, she decided to do something about it. And that was the start of the social venture called Kinvolved.
It’s a pleasure to have with us the co-founder and CEO of Kinvolved, Miriam Altman. Good evening, Miriam, and welcome to The Business of Giving.
Miriam: Hi, Denver. Thanks for having me.
Denver: How did you first come to the realization that absenteeism, especially chronic absenteeism, was such a big issue? And how serious an issue is it across the United States?
Miriam: I started my career about 10 years ago when I moved to New York City to become a public school educator. I taught in a high school for several years. And one of the first things I observed when I was teaching was that kids just weren’t showing up to school consistently. I had students who would miss a day of school here and there, kids who would chronically miss first period and so always missed their History class; other students who would be absent for a couple of weeks at a time for family vacations or other more severe issues, and then just the typical high school kid who would cut class here and there. And it just was a pretty tremendous, overwhelming problem that I really saw first-hand.
Of course, as anyone can expect, if kids don’t show up to school – just like if you don’t show up to work – it’s very hard to make progress. I started to really identify this as a core problem that was preventing my students from being successful.
Just two days per month of class missed means that a kid is chronically absent. Even as a teacher, I never realized how quickly days could add up. So it’s critically important that in the elementary grades, we’re educating parents about why it’s critical to come to school…if you go on for an entire school year or more where kids are just chronically late, even if they are showing up, they might fall behind very quickly in their reading levels, for example.
Denver: I’m sure there’s no simple answer to this, Miriam. But why are students generally late or absent from class?
Miriam: That’s a great question. It’s interesting because now Kinvolved is starting to work in communities ranging in size and demographic. Now, we’re in more than seven states. Interestingly, regardless of the differences in the geographic region and the type of district, the problems tend to be very similar. A couple of the core reasons kids tend to be absent from class are: When you look at the elementary school age group of students, certainly it’s not the kids themselves who are relying on adults to bring them into school, who are late or absent on their own.
It’s parents who are working several jobs who don’t necessarily realize how quickly absenteeism adds up. Just two days per month of class missed means that a kid is chronically absent. Even as a teacher, I never realized how quickly days could add up. So it’s critically important that in the elementary grades, we’re educating parents about why it’s critical to come to school. Other parents of elementary school kids sometimes won’t realize what time school starts, or they’re trying to get kids out the door to school in the morning. What happens is: day after day, if students are late, they miss that first 30 or 45 minutes of the school day, and that’s when they’re learning their reading skills. Then, if you go on for an entire school year or more where kids are just chronically late, even if they are showing up, they might fall behind very quickly in their reading levels, for example.
Denver: Asthma is a big reason kids don’t show up as well, right?
Miriam: Yes. When we look at the core reasons behind absenteeism, chronic illness, chronic asthma would certainly be one of those types of illnesses that really affects kids in more urban and high-poverty communities. I have asthma myself, and it’s never something that’s prevented me from attending school. I have an inhaler that I keep with me. So, when I started to learn when I was teaching that kids were missing days or even weeks on end of school because they were having attacks and didn’t have the proper preventative care, it was really pretty shocking to me. And the research shows that it’s not uncommon for kids to miss school for that reason.
Other reasons that we see are pretty severe as well. Oftentimes, issues related to poverty. Students whose families become homeless or become evicted from their homes. Students whose parents don’t speak English and have a court date, whether it’s for an eviction or something else, so the students are whom the parents are relying on to translate for them in court. I can tell you many instances in which I saw that in my own classroom with high school students, and when we hear about that in high schools in which we’re working now.
There’s also some issues that have arisen more recently, unfortunately, around politics. In New York City, in particular, there’s been a lot of reporting around kids not feeling comfortable coming to school who are undocumented immigrants, for example. Similarly, the parents are not feeling comfortable coming in to the school for that same reason. Those are some of the barriers that we’re trying to help schools break down with families who don’t necessarily feel comfortable in the school buildings as a starting point.
Denver: Is there a day of the week where absenteeism is highest?
Miriam: That’s a good question. I don’t know that on the national scale nor on a New York City specific scale. What I do know is that teachers can look at that information, as well as school administrators and district administrators, within our technology. You can see attendance by day of the week and really identify those trends. But there’s not a known day.
Denver: Not Monday.
Miriam: I would say typically, probably Fridays or days around long weekends, holidays, and such.
I really felt that there was a tremendous gap and barriers that we could break down that would get kids to come to school, and therefore help them shift their paths so that they would be more likely to be successful in the short and the long term.
Denver: You were able to take this idea, and you know how many people, Miriam, have great ideas and do nothing with them. But you acted on yours. How did Kinvolved become a reality?
Miriam: I always tell the story of one student – and she’s just one of many, many kids whom I taught when I was in the classroom. The student’s name is Alexandra. Alexandra is from my class, and she was in ninth grade. Within the first marking period, which is about six weeks in the school year, she had already missed about half of the school days, and as a result was chronically absent, of course, and failing my class which was required for graduation, as well as the other classes that she was missing, of course. As a result of her absence, I became very concerned that she wasn’t going to pass. I was a new teacher, and I taught Alexandra. I reached out to her mother using the phone number that the school had on file. I wasn’t able to get a phone call back. I was very frustrated, and I was wondering: Does this mother not care about her kid being successful? Why isn’t she being a partner to me? And I felt really alienated like I was the only one trying to get Alexandra to come to school.
But when I met Alexandra’s mom at parent-teacher night at the end of that first marking period, that’s when I realized that my presumptions about her mother, as well as about many other parents, were totally invalidated. And that was because when her mother showed up to the parent-teacher night, she received the printout of the report card, and that was the first time – six weeks into the school year –if you can imagine as a parent – that she saw the number of days that her daughter had missed school and the corresponding failing grades in every single class. When I met Alexandra’s mother, first of all, she came to the conferences with a couple of her other children. She had several kids that she was caring for. I learned that she didn’t speak English as a native language. She was a Spanish speaker, and her phone number had changed because she had a pay-as-you-go phone, and she changed numbers, and the school never got the new number. This is a very common story, which is why I tell it all the time.
It was only because her mother and I had this chance engagement – or we met at this teacher conference, and I speak a little bit of Spanish – that I was able to save her mother’s new phone number in my phone, and I started just texting her and constantly following up with her – texting in Spanish, “Alexandra made it to school… this is the homework.” These kinds of communications. Almost instantly, within the next week, Alexandra’s attendance improved. She ended up graduating from high school, and she graduated from college about two years ago now. So, while that’s an amazing success story, it’s only one. That’s exactly right.
People love hearing that story, and I love to tell it. And there are others like that, but unfortunately when I went back to the graduation for Alexandra and her classmates who had been in my class in ninth grade, only about 50% of the kids who started ninth grade were walking across the stage on that graduation day. Unfortunately, that’s not at all dissimilar from many statistics we see city-wide in New York, as well as on a national scale in the type of communities where many of our students come from.
So, that’s when I really started thinking. I was in graduate school at that time. I was in my first year at the Wagner School at NYU, studying Policy. I thought I wanted to start a school – that’s what I wrote in my application essay about. I had the entrepreneurial bug already, but it wasn’t necessarily that I imagined developing a solution to this absenteeism problem. But thinking about what the greatest challenges were when I was teaching, going back to that graduation day, and realizing how many kids that we really could have changed the course of their lives if I had had more interactions with their families and gotten on the same page with them– as was in the instance of Alexandra– I really felt that there was a tremendous gap and barriers that we could break down that would get kids to come to school, and therefore help them shift their paths so that they would be more likely to be successful in the short and the long term.
Denver: It turns out you found another Alexandra at Wagner’s School who turned out to be your co-founder.
Miriam: Indeed. Yes. My co-founder, Alex – as we call her – is our Chief Projects Officer. Alex and I met actually the very first event that we had at Wagner, over a glass of wine. There was a professor-and-student mixer like the day before school started. We happened to start chatting and knew a few people in common as it turned out, had a few classes together, and started to become friends and also work together– which is important if we’re thinking about starting a business – and found that we had a lot of complementary backgrounds and experiences.
While I was in the classroom, Alex had been working in the hospital, Bronx Lebanon, up in the South Bronx – developing a parent’s support group. So, she really saw what I was seeing in the classroom perspective, the perspective of parents that she was working with, and how little information that they had about their children’s progress in school, and how deeply they wanted to be involved and didn’t really know where to start.
We capture quite a bit of data that’s really informative and put it into reports that existing systems really don’t offer that enables school-based teams – usually called attendance teams or administrative teams or district level teams – to really identify which kids are missing school– which days, for which reasons – and informed interventions that are based on data rather than throwing everything at the wall and seeing what sticks…
Denver: Very nice set of complementary backgrounds and skills. Kinvolved is built around the Kinvo app. How does this app work? What does the teacher do? What happens?
Miriam: In every district outside of New York City – New York is a little bit different – the way that we work is that we actually plug directly into the district student information system, which is the system of record that every school district is mandated to use where teachers input attendance data. Sometimes, it is a technology. In New York City, it’s these bubble sheets, these Scantron forms. Essentially, what we’ve been able to do is build direct integrations into each of these systems regardless of the system that the district uses, and we read the attendance data that the teachers have input into their system of record and operate on the backend making that actionable in two ways: One is that we send – translated in about 65 different languages – translated text message as well as email and robocall – but really focusing on text messages because that’s the type of communication that everyone uses.
We send notifications to families based on the attendance data about their student’s attendance on a daily basis. Parents can actually receive a text message, respond in Haitian Creole – if that’s their native language – and it’ll translate back into English and go directly to the main point of contact; an attendance clerk typically is what they’re called within the school who typically, you might imagine, mans the phones in the main office. Now, they are cutting five or more hours per day of their time on the phones just gathering this information via text message so that they can really refocus their efforts on deeper interventions for kids who are more than just sick that day or had a death in the family – those kids who really have more chronic issues; they can focus their time there. That’s the first way that technology enables the attendance data to be actionable.
Secondly, we capture quite a bit of data that’s really informative and put it into reports that existing systems really don’t offer that enables school-based teams – usually called attendance teams or administrative teams or district level teams – to really identify which kids are missing school– which days, for which reasons – and informed interventions that are based on data rather than throwing everything at the wall and seeing what sticks – which is what we’ve found a lot of districts are trying to do now as they’ve discovered this problem.
Denver: Is attendance generally taken at the beginning of the day, or is it taken during every class period?
Miriam: For elementary schools, it’s typically taken close to the beginning of the day. For high schools, it’s typically taken every class period. But that varies a bit depending on the city and state’s requirements.
Denver: Do these text messages just go to the parents or guardians, or are other people getting them as well?
Miriam: That’s a great question. People ask us; in fact one of our users that we had in our office yesterday asked us about the name Kinvolved and where that came from. The idea behind the name is kin, like the Kinship Network, realizing from our experiences working directly with families, that it’s not just parents who need to be informed often. It’s that student support network and building that network around students. So, it could be grandparents. It could be older brothers and sisters, cousins, basketball coaches, Big Brothers/Big Sisters…people who are authorized to receive communications. There could be up to 10 per student who are part of that network receiving information via text message about attendance as well as other topics. It’s not just communications limited to attendance.
…research proves that there is a huge potential– if we communicate more positive information consistently to families– that can be what we call Tier 1 intervention that just starts by laying the foundation – creating a welcoming, warm culture in the school, where kids who are really attending school want to continue to come back. So, it’s preventative in nature, as well as trying to pull kids back in who start to fall off track. When kids feel like they’re wanted, when families feel like they’re welcome — and that’s enabled through positive communications and text messaging as a starting point– we find that the school and the district really has that foundation to ensure that fewer kids fall off track in the first place.
Denver: Tell me about some of those other topics. What are the other capabilities of this app?
Miriam: Indeed. The technology really, again, started with a focus on reducing absenteeism and informing parents about attendance and absenteeism. What we found is that research proves that there is a huge potential– if we communicate more positive information consistently to families– that can be what we call Tier 1 intervention that just starts by laying the foundation – creating a welcoming, warm culture in the school, where kids who are really attending school want to continue to come back. So, it’s preventative in nature, as well as trying to pull kids back in who start to fall off track. When kids feel like they’re wanted, when families feel like they’re welcome – and that’s enabled through positive communications and text messaging as a starting point — we find that the school and the district really has that foundation to ensure that fewer kids fall off track in the first place.
We’ve become an all-encompassing communications tool. Everyone from the teacher in the classroom to the school principal who wants to send a message about parent-teacher nights, for example, to even now district-level leadership – the need to send emergency alerts about a snow day or something of that nature – can use the technology as their main system of communication, and everyone gets on the same tool, which is great for parents because it lends to consistency.
It’s awesome for school-based leadership because they have oversight over the communications to ensure they’re safe and secure. And what you have now in a lot of districts is teachers using their own phones, like I did, or individual apps that really the quality control is very difficult to manage.
Denver: I would imagine this level of communication really just changes the nature of the relationship between the parent and the school, and probably the school can even ascertain some of the problems maybe that the child is having at home that they would otherwise not know… and then can sort of direct them to community resources or referrals.
Miriam: Exactly. Indeed.
Denver: Was this a challenge for you and your co-founder? Neither one of you were technologists, and you built a company based on a software app. How did you navigate those tricky waters?
Miriam: That’s a really great question. Now that we’ve been doing this for about six years, we have had the opportunity to think back on some of the challenges that we’ve experienced.
Denver: You wonder why you did it in the first place.
Miriam: Sometimes I wonder. But when we hear the stories of the impact of the work that we’re doing, and the relationships we’ve developed and sustained over the years, it’s really all worth it.
Yes. Indeed. Neither of us had technology backgrounds. That was definitely a sticking point for funders earlier on who were really concerned about lack of technical talent on the team. But I would say that both my co-founder, Alex, who is our Chief Product Officer and works directly with our technical team as well as on the implementation of the software with our school districts… and myself; I don’t have a business background. I didn’t go to business school. I started as a teacher in the classroom and have a policy degree. I learned to fund raise. I learned to develop a business model so that – we’re a revenue -generating company.
Denver: Just get stuff done.
Miriam: Exactly. That’s exactly right. For us, it’s been a fun challenge to identify those weaknesses and figure out ways to self-teach. To answer your question, we were able to build the technology. It was a little bumpy at first, to be very honest. We went through a few different technical teams. We learned things along the way. I don’t think that any of the money that we spent on building the technology early on was money wasted because it really was all in the spirit of learning, and we were able to get results all the way through. We had pilots that started, and we’ve had that same school that we started with since 2013. But over time, Alex in particular, really learned how to manage a technical team.
We’ve had some really incredible advisors who spent way more time than they ever should be required to, but just because they were great people and saw the potential in Alex and in our team and in our product and the mission, spent a lot of time with us, really training us up in how to build a product and how to manage a product roadmap; taking user feedback consistently, which is critically important, and we’re always improving and always iterating. It’s not a finished product, and it never will be.
Denver: That’s good. You’ve also enriched what you do by helping schools create a culture of attendance. And one of the things that you’re doing in this regard are your professional services. What are those professional services comprised of?
Miriam: When we started Kinvolved, again, based on my experience in the classroom, based on Alex’s experience in the community work with parents, I use technology in my classroom probably more limited than what’s out there now. But I always knew that just giving teachers a technology did not mean it was going to be used. And it didn’t mean that it was going to be used in the way that we, Kinvolved, as an organization’s mission-driven really intended. If we just gave the technology to some teachers, not all, but to some; the traditional culture has been to use communications tools for negative communications with families. That’s exactly the reverse effect that we want to see. We want families to ultimately feel welcome in the school, to feel like they’re a partner. And that takes coaching and training. Again, just giving someone a tool without guidance in how to use it and implement it strategically, when you’re really trying to create change and cultural shift in an industry like the education industry, you really need to make sure people are equipped with information that they need to use it effectively.
Professional services, also called professional development, and it’s a common term in education, are both virtual and in-person. We have different packages which we offer that range in basically the level of service that a district wants. Essentially, we go and we work with a district team on the implementation and think about it strategically – both from a technical implementation perspective as well as from a strategic perspective in terms of policy. What policies they already have in place? What might they want to implement? What are their main goals? And how can this software– within the other systems that they may be using and the other policies that they may be promoting – where does this fit in most effectively? And what do we really want to highlight?
Plus, then, how do we roll it out most effectively? Typically, we don’t roll out district-wide right away unless it’s a fairly small district. We want it to be staged and stepped out, so that there are opportunities to learn along the way before doing a full-blown roll out. Those are some of the examples of professional services that we offer.
Denver: You recently came out with your 2016- 2017 Impact Report. What has this all meant in terms of reducing absenteeism and having students in their seats for more hours during the school day?
Miriam: What we know is that when we’ve looked at publicly available data – not just data we’re capturing and using to our own interest – but really looking at publicly available data that cities, specifically New York and the case that that report put out, we know that the schools with which we work first of all enroll higher demographics of students who are dealing with more challenges typically– students who are living below the poverty line who would qualify for free, reduced lunch; who are what we call English-language learners, so don’t speak English as a native language, and typically, students of color. Again, compared with even the average city school, our schools are enrolling higher populations in each of those areas, so they’re facing more adversity in some instances than the typical daily school.
But despite those challenges and that adversity, the schools with which we work have improved attendance at a rate that is about 13 times better than the average New York City school. The most significant improvement we’ve seen is among high schools. But we’ve seen improvement as well among the middle schools, as well as elementary schools in average daily attendance. What we also know – and it’s new data that we didn’t have in previous years – is that chronic absenteeism of our schools is much lower than that of the city’s average school. While the cities unfortunately have pretty significant increases in chronic absence last year, the schools with which we work saw a much lesser increase in chronic absenteeism. It’s first about…it’s like stopping the bleeding and then starting to work to bring it down. And that’s what we’re doing in districts like the Providence public schools and others across the country that have seen similar trends of upward chronic absence.
Our backgrounds, the people that we hire in our team, the school districts with which we work, and the students that we really want to help serve – it’s really to us about equity. Not all education technology is designed to close gaps; in some cases, inadvertently or maybe advertently, it actually increases gaps between students who are of means and students who are not. And we are really determined to close those gaps.
Denver: You are not a nonprofit organization but a social venture, a C corporation. Tell us a little bit about how you structured your company and your business model – where your funding comes from and how you generate your income.
Miriam: We are an incredibly mission-driven organization. Our backgrounds, the people that we hire on our team, the school districts with which we work, and the students that we really want to help serve – it’s really to us about equity. Not all education technology is designed to close gaps ; in some cases, inadvertently or maybe advertently, it actually increases gaps between students who are of means and students who are not. And we are really determined to close those gaps.
But that said, we did do a lot of investigation early on in the development of the company to figure out whether we should be nonprofit or for profit. It really was a question, and we did a lot of research, like I said. We decided to become a for-profit largely because the main product that we offer and our main revenue generating source is technology. You can as a nonprofit own technology, but it’s much less frequent. That’s the first reason.
The second reason was that, we really wanted to build a product that was reliant upon our customer base. We wanted our customers and our revenues as a result to really drive the development of the company rather than potential philanthropic funding that might have different goals that were slightly outside the mission or the needs of the user. So, we did decide to incorporate as a C corporation, but we also were the first ed tech company to become a certified benefit corporation. That was way back in 2013. We’ve been re-certified several times since then.
Denver: What does the product cost for a school or a school district, and I’m sure there is a big variation based on the size and other things of that nature?
Miriam: It’s very competitively priced, and it’s an annual license per student that really ranges depending on the type of the software or the functionality of the software. We have a couple different versions of the Kinvo app that districts can purchase.
Denver: Speaking of competition, do you have any competition?
Miriam: A great question. Certainly. The education technology market is a crowded one. I think it’s consolidating to some degree. When we think of competition, there are three different types of products that are out there. First are the student information systems. I mentioned those earlier. Those are broad tools that encompass and collect a number of different data points ranging from attendance, to grades, to parent contact information, and many other data points. Actually, instead of competing with those systems, which is what we experienced earlier on in the company’s life cycle, we’ve now built direct integrations with many of them so that we can pull their data and really enhance it for the benefit of the district. Student information systems are used for broad data collection. They’re not really intended to improve attendance. So, that’s really the narrow focus that we’ve established.
The second group of competitors that we think of are district-level mass communication systems for example, like the robocalling systems when there’s a snow day. Typically, those systems are pretty limited in that they are not accessible to teachers. The teachers have to find their own tools to use. They don’t enable two-way communication for the most part, so parents can’t respond. It’s not an engagement tool. It’s a broadcasting tool. So many districts have actually been able to replace those tools by offering the same functionality and much more at a very competitive price.
The third bucket would be individual teacher tools. Some of the Silicon Valley type individual apps that teachers would download– and they’re really awesome to use– fall short when it comes to district level oversight. And districts are becoming increasingly concerned about the safety and security of communications as a result.
I think that the traditional school model, generally speaking, is pretty antiquated. I think that there are many efforts that I followed to change up the way that school exists. We hope that as those models take root and become more common, attendance– whether it’s virtual attendance or in-person attendance at a jobsite or wherever that is– will be important so there will still be a place for Kinvolved. And we’re really excited to see where the industry grows and adapt to that. For now, mostly it’s brick and mortar schools.
Denver: Let me ask your opinion on something, having been around this area for such a long time – thousands of children, hundreds of thousands of school hours in class periods – do you have any thoughts on the school day itself – the hours of the school day, and also the duration of the school year?
Miriam: It’s an interesting question because I think that the traditional school model, generally speaking, is pretty antiquated. I think that there are many efforts that I followed to change up the way that school exists. We hope that as those models take root and become more common, attendance– whether it’s virtual attendance or in-person attendance at a jobsite or wherever that is– will be important so there will still be a place for Kinvolved. And we’re really excited to see where the industry grows and adapt to that. For now, mostly it’s brick and mortar schools.
I know that the school in which I taught had the latest start time in the city. It was 9 AM, and then we went a little bit later in the day. I think that that was really good for high school students. However, once kids know that the day has shifted back later, then kids who would have been late when it starts at 8 AM, now become late when it starts at 9 AM. So it’s about mindset shifts.
The other thing I would say however though is that, when we’re thinking about reasons for absenteeism and lateness, transportation– especially in big cities,and New York is not excluded from this, is the core reason for lateness and absence. So, when kids are commuting, especially in New York again, from long distances because their place in high school is all over the city, it is helpful to them when the school day starts a little bit later.
When we think about what the future holds, there’s a huge need nationally – we are attacking this problem in a really unique way, and we also have six years of work under our belts observing what the needs are in the community and following policy that’s now making this more of a forefront issue. Denver: Let me close with this, Miriam. What’s next for Kinvolved? What new markets are you looking at, and what other enhancements are you contemplating to have even a greater impact?
Miriam: It’s been a really exciting time for Kinvolved. We really got our start in New York City right in our own backyard. We expanded pretty organically starting with a couple of pilots in the 2013-2014 school year, growing that pilot in the 2014- 2015 school year, and then 2015-2016 is really when we consider to have launched. By the end of that school year, we had 40 schools in New York that were using the product. By the end of the 2016-2017 school year, we had more than 100 schools in New York City using that product, and that number has continued to grow. We’re in about 115 New York City schools.
The thing that’s really exciting and with the last year is that it was the first time in which we really grew outside of New York City. We are able to get into districts that really ranged in size from more suburban districts that still had challenges with absenteeism– that were more like 10,000 students, all the way up to large districts like Providence public schools, for example, where we just launched the district-wide partnership over the last several months. When we think about what the future holds, there’s a huge need nationally – we are attacking this problem in a really unique way, and we also have six years of work under our belts observing what the needs are in the community and following policy that’s now making this more of a forefront issue. We want to expand within the states that we’re already working in and really again get that network or that community effect, but we also hope to be in all 50 states and even have an international presence. We get a ton of international inbound interest that we just haven’t yet felt like we’re ready to attack.
Denver: It’s just wonderful when you think about all the things we’re trying to do to improve the education system in this country. Nothing much more foundational than having people show up for school.
Miriam Altman, the CEO of Kinvolved. I want to thank you so much for being here this evening. Tell us about your website and some of the things visitors will find on it.
Miriam: Thanks, Denver. Our website is www.kinvolved.com. On our website, you can find information – all about the services that we provide. You can hear quotes from and videos from some of our users, download our Impact Report, as well as our Guide to Family Partnerships which is our recent e-book that we put out that’s based on our learnings and the districts that we’ve worked with for the last six years. You can also sign up to learn more about how to bring the Kinvo app, as well as our other services, to your school or your district by going to www.kinvolved.com, and we’ll look forward to hearing from you.
Denver: Thanks, Miriam. It was great to have you on the show.
Miriam: Thanks, Denver. It’s great to be here.
Denver: I’ll be back with more of The Business of Giving right after this.
The Business of Giving can be heard every Sunday evening between 6:00 p.m. and 7:00 p.m. Eastern on AM 970 The Answer in New York and on iHeartRadio. You can follow us @bizofgive on Twitter, @bizofgive on Instagram and at www.facebook.com/businessofgiving.