The following is a conversation between Louise Langheier, co-founder and CEO of Peer Health Exchange, and Denver Frederick, Host of The Business of Giving on AM 970 The Answer in New York City.
Denver: For many listeners, Health and Sex Ed classes at school could have been better. Someone, about the age of your parent, telling you what you should and should not do with your body. Despite those limitations, they did impart some valuable information. But now, in many schools, because of budget and staff cuts, as well as increased focus on standardized testing, they don’t exist at all. That is where the Peer Health Exchange comes in; bringing these classes back, especially in low-income neighborhoods, and in a way that adolescents can much better relate to. And it’s a pleasure to have with us tonight, co-founder and CEO of the Peer Health Exchange, Louise Langheier. Good evening, Louise, and welcome to The Business of Giving.
Louise: Thank you.
Denver: Before we dig in to how you do what you do, give us a brief overview of the organization and of its mission.
Louise: Peer Health Exchange’s mission is to empower young people with the knowledge, skills, and resources they need to make healthy decisions. And we do that by training college students to teach a skills-based health curriculum in under-resourced public high schools across the country. We have, since our start in 2003, trained a total of 10,000 college student volunteers to reach 150,000 ninth graders across the country.
Denver: Quite impressive. While you were up at Yale, Louise, in New Haven, around the turn of the century, was when you started what was to become the Peer Health Exchange. Tell us about how this all began.
Louise: First of all, it actually did not begin with me, importantly. It began with a teacher in a New Haven public school, Tom Shugrue, who had a bunch of Yale volunteers actually tutoring in his classrooms in 1999 when I arrived at Yale as a freshman. Eager as I was to get into the schools and to specifically work on HIV since I had grown up amidst the HIV epidemic in San Francisco and been affected by it, this teacher sat a group of us down in the fall of 1999 and told us, “All you Yale kids who come in here and try to tutor my students, you’re actually not very good at it. You don’t really know how to teach, and honestly, we have a much bigger need, which is that we’ve lost our funding for Health education. And my students are not getting basic tools about key health issues and decisions they make on sex, relationships, mental health, drugs. And I’m 60, and they definitely do not want to talk to me about these issues. But you all, if you get a diverse group of students in here, you are close enough in age that I think they might really listen to you, and I’m pretty sure you’ll be better at that than you are at tutoring. So, stop the tutoring and start teaching Health.”
So that was the beginning. There were six of us who started teaching in Tom’s classroom in the fall of 1999 and really saw quickly the magic of what he had conceived of –which is that college students, in particular diverse college students, could… and we did… really relate to 9th graders who looked up to us with enough respect to listen, but enough connection to feel like they could talk to us about these issues.
…two in five adolescents did not use a condom the last time they had sex. So, the important takeaway from that is, of course, that if young people are not using protection when they have sex, they are much more likely to have an unintended pregnancy.
Denver: And that is the founding story. We all know, at least assume, that adolescents do engage in risky and harmful behavior. What are some of the statistics connected with that behavior starting with sexual health?
Louise: In sexual health, you’re absolutely right that risky behavior is normal to some extent in adolescence. It’s part of the experimentation that adolescents go through. For listeners who have any knowledge, one of the adolescent health experts in our field is this incredible woman in New York, Angela Diaz, who runs the Mount Sinai Adolescent Health Center. She often will say, “We forget that adolescents are going through a very normal period of experimentation and testing their limits and developing their prefrontal cortex. That said, given that they’re going through those tests, the key is that they actually know how to protect themselves and be healthy when they do.”
The statistics in sexual health that I like to share that’s really important and concerning is that, two in five adolescents did not use a condom the last time they had sex. So, the important takeaway from that is, of course, that if young people are not using protection when they have sex, they are much more likely to have an unintended pregnancy. And the data related to unintended pregnancy is perhaps in many ways, the most concerning of all, which is that if a young person gets an unintended pregnancy, they have a 70% increased risk of dropping out of high school, of giving birth to an unhealthy child, and of living in poverty for the rest of their life.
Denver: We had Mark Edwards of Upstream USA on the show a few weeks ago, and it’s amazing that almost half the pregnancies in this country, whether it be young people or others, are unintended pregnancies. Tremendous consequences with all of that. Then, we have substance abuse. What do the numbers look like there?
Louise: In substance abuse, one of the most striking numbers I think to focus on is that one in four young people is a binge drinker. That has many consequences. One of which is that, if a young person is binge drinking, they’re much more likely to be the victim or the perpetrator of a sexual assault. So, we have all been focused a lot in this country this year on consent and sexual assaults, and I think we often don’t make the connection between substance misuse and sexual assault that we really need to. Of course there are also consequences around their ability, with an impaired brain and judgement, to make decisions that protect their lives, but really young people die more often in car accidents than otherwise when they’ve been binge drinking. So, that’s a really concerning piece of the substance misuse problem.
Denver: Another thing we’ve been concerned about in this country, this past year in particular, has been mental health. How are American teenagers feeling these days?
Louise: The data on mental health is really trending. Trending to show more issues for young people with mental health than ever. One data point on that is that one in five young people reports that in the last year, they felt consistently sad or hopeless, which is just so heartbreaking on many levels. I think what’s particularly important about that data point is that actually for young people who are feeling sad or hopeless or anxious, in many ways actually, the most important solution is to go get help sooner. And unfortunately, about 70% of young people who are struggling with mental health never get treatment of any kind… be that talking to a counselor or getting some kind of drug that they can use to help get them through that. Obviously, often counseling does the trick, but this is all to say that actually it’s not: mental health can be quite complicated. It can also be quite simple. The fact that we have 70% of young people struggling with mental health not getting help just means there are some pretty low hanging fruit on what we can do about that.
…it even used to be true that in the government, the Department of Education and the Department of Health and Labor were one. So, there was less distinction between the singular purpose of education as academics and the singular purpose of health as medicine.
Denver: Listening to those statistics, let me ask you this. When cuts need to be made in school programs because of budgetary concerns, we almost automatically assume things like health education and gym and the arts are going to be the first to go. What do you think it says about our public education system that these kinds of programs are the ones that are always eliminated?
Louise: To me, what’s so interesting and critical about that is that we have, like you said, come to expect that schools really exist for the purpose of academics, and that the whole child goes to school and exists in the world has really become way less of our focus in schools. And in many ways, that’s actually quite counter to how public schools started in this country.
Public schools were really, in the beginning, they were there to create the civic fabric of society and to create healthy, knowledgeable citizens more than anything else. There’s a long history in this country of public education actually being bigger than academics… or more than academics. And it even used to be true that in the government, the Department of Education and the Department of Health and Labor were one. So, there was less distinction between the singular purpose of education as academics and the singular purpose of health as medicine.
I think what it says about our education system is that we have really come to limit what schools can do for young people when actually, if I look at where I see the most magical things happening in schools, it’s actually true that schools are incredible places. Schools are places where young people can be truly developed into their whole citizen selves. And when you see that happening in the best case examples, it is a holistic approach. It is definitely academics. You need to learn how to read. You need to learn how to do math. But it also includes the social, emotional, health, well-being, and civic engagement of that child, and the magic of that in the best case scenario means that a young person leaves school and is really ready to contribute to society on all levels, not just because they’re healthy but also because they have the skills to engage as a citizen to vote, to be a participating member of their community. I think if we limit ourselves to the academic focus, we will really limit what we get from the incredibly talented young people that are in our schools.
To me, it’s really sad. It’s also a true testament to the possibility of change because if we can actually get schools to go back to a day or go forward to a day where they do more holistic education of young people, you can just imagine what that means for our country.
Denver: Are you hopeful?
Louise: I am. It might be foolish for me to be hopeful after so many years of seeing these cuts, but I do think what’s changing in this country in the education system is a real appreciation that, Look! Academics alone has not worked in that we are still seeing pretty horrible results from schools just from the number of young people who even make it through school, especially in under-resourced communities. I think they’re starting to be much more focused on the other factors that affect young people, and I think there are a lot of great organizations and people that are starting to demonstrate what it looks like when you do serve the whole child.
Denver: Have to get the community involved. You have to understand what their home life is like. You have to get transportation so they can get to school. They have to be nourished. I think you’re right. People are beginning to look at it in a much more comprehensive way. Speaking about those schools, what’s the process you undertake to partner with one?
Louise: Our process has evolved a lot since we started. But it sort of sticks with the root story of PHE in a sense that we were started by a teacher in a school, and we just always deeply believe and respect that we need to be partnered with schools and with the partnerships around that school that really enable it to thrive. So, we start by in a community really going individually to schools to assess what their need is; ask them if in that context, they can see an opportunity for Peer Health Exchange to help meet that need.
We partner with schools that are serving a majority of students at or below the poverty line because these issues– specifically around health education and the health and well-being of young people– disproportionately affect young people of color and other marginalized identities who just lack the same resources that their more affluent peers have. We start with that criteria, and once we’ve selected for schools that meet it, we then meet individually with principals. And that in turn with teachers in the school to find a period of time during the school day in which we could teach. Our program is not an after-school program. It’s not an elective. It’s a required class which is pretty important for teaching the young people where they are.
And we teach in 9th grade, so we have to have the school ready to commit a 9th grade class like an advisory class once a week for 13 weeks to Peer Health Exchange, and now, increasingly, we also ask schools to share the cost of the program with us because we really believe in the spirit of what public education could be, that health education should be core to what a school delivers for young people, and to sustain not just our own program but the broader vision of health education in this country. We want schools to contribute. So that’s the process.
Denver: Have a little skin in the game. It helps. It really does. You mentioned 9th grade. Why 9th grade?
Louise: 9th grade, we thought a lot about it and tested it too, and we’ll need to continue to think about it. 9th grade was where we started originally, and it was really the brilliance of this founding teacher almost 20 years ago in New Haven because he said, “Look, you want to get students who are coming into high school, who are facing these risks at a greater proportion than ever because they are exposed to older kids who are inherently risky– whether they are trying to influence younger kids to try substances or influencing your kids to get into relationships with them. These older kids have a disproportionate influence.
So, the 9th grade is really the moment when the most risky behavior can occur because they’re still so young and still so moldable, but they’re really exposed to a lot of the older kids’ stuff, and they’re ready to learn at the same time. They’re still in school, which is sadly for a lot of the students that we serve by the end of ninth grade, the drop-out rate increases. So, you really want to reach them while they’re there. Thought about 8th grade; we tested our model in 7th and 8th grade because a lot of these behaviors are happening younger and younger, but ultimately what we saw in our evaluation was that 9th grade was the place we could have the greatest impact the fastest.
7th and 8th grade, our results were decent. We had increased knowledge in some ways and increased skills in others, but we saw less what’s called help-seeking behavior where students are actually going to get help for mental health or sexual health, and we decided that at least for now, the dream would be one day, children get health education at every grade level. If we’re going to pick one, ninth grade is the year we can have the greatest impact.
Denver: It’s a year where there’s a lot of transition. You get out of middle school, and you’re going to high school, and there’s a lot of influences. As you say, it’s probably really the last chance you have to capture these kids before they become, if I dare say, too cool to do all this.
You have a school now that you’re partnering with. You begin to recruit college students from surrounding universities, and you certainly don’t accept everyone who applies. How does that unfold? And who are some of the colleges that you’re currently partnering with?
Louise: Our college student process is really so much the secret sauce of what Peer Health Exchange does, and it’s really because college students, especially a diverse group of college students, have, an unbelievable ability to both be a part of and commit to doing this work, but also to, as we said earlier, to relate to young people.
We really value every step of this process quite a bit. We do start with recruiting college students. We want more applicants than available spots, so we can be selective, mostly because we want to select for true commitment to the mission and the vision of PHE, and in the time commitment and process it takes to become a health educator. We do have at least two applicants for every spot on campus.
Importantly, in that process, we’re really recruiting for a diverse group of volunteers, so we found over time, while I was a white woman starting this program with a group of largely other white women that actually, there are real limits on how much impact a group of white women could have on young people, in particular, young people of color. It was much more powerful to have a mix of not just folks who look like me, but also young people who were really sharing the backgrounds of the young people that they were serving… and brought just more talent inherent in that diversity.
So we have really expanded the recruitment, specifically from the original colleges, and I’ll just use New York as an example because we’re here. Our original colleges in New York were Barnard, Columbia, NYU. While they’re still really amazing programs in those three colleges and definitely have more diversity in those programs, we actually started recruiting more and more in the last five years from City University of New York–CUNY, the one and only– and from specifically Hunter College, Brooklyn College, York College, Queens College, City College.
That has been a really powerful process and for us, in getting a more talented, more diverse groups of young people. So there are 500 volunteers this year alone who are health educators for Peer Health Exchange New York City, and about half of those volunteers are CUNY college students, 75% of CUNY students went to New York City public high school. So, there’s just more of a connection.
Once they’re selected, they then are trained rigorously. This is not your average volunteer program where you just sort of show up …for obvious reasons, because you can’t do that and teach about these sensitive health topics. They are trained really in cultural competence to bring everyone to the same equity core value we hold so dear. We do a power, privilege, and oppression training to ensure that no matter where college students are coming from, they can all get on the same page about what it means to do this work with young people in community. They do work on classroom management, on public speaking, and ultimately on trauma-informed approach in the classroom.
They’re assessed essentially on their skills before they’re allowed to teach. That’s pretty important. So, it’s not really like checking the box on training either. You have to demonstrate you’ve gotten what you’re taught, and then you start teaching usually about two months later; 20 hours and two months later, you start teaching in the classroom with another college student volunteer. If you’re the high school student, you get these two college students and now have the same college students show up every week for 13 weeks teaching you the curriculum.
More importantly, young people just actually don’t know how to have conversations about these issues with peers and partners. What to do if they do need help?
Denver: What’s in that curriculum? What are some of the core things? I think you have 13 modules or something?
Louise: The core of the curriculum is really a set of skills that the college students practice with young people that are applied to the three health topics that we focus on. The skills are reflection, communication, decision-making, and accessing resources.
Denver: You can really activate this knowledge in other words.
Louise: Exactly. What we learned over in the beginning is that knowledge is just not enough, I can tell you because I used to teach problematically way too much about knowledge. It’s just not enough, and it’s really not what young people lack. There are definitely myths about how one gets pregnant or what might happen to you if you get caught with the substance or what might happen if you’re struggling with mental health. There are myths about those topics.
More importantly, young people just actually don’t know how to have conversations about these issues with peers and partners. What to do if they do need help? And so it’s really that practice of those skills… literally someone in a situation is pressuring you to use a substance or someone is pressuring you to have unwanted sex; how do you have that conversation? Practice. That’s what it looks like. It’s really helpful, and then it’s applied to sexual health, mental health, and substances.
Denver: I also imagine that a lot of these young people don’t know where health services are or have the knowledge and wherewithal on how to access it.
Louise: We’ve learned over time that this is one of the most simple and powerful ways to help young people on these issues is exactly what you said. There are actually a ton of really great health resources out there for young people, especially in New York City. Whether that’s an adolescent health center or school-based health clinics, there are lots of resources actually in most of our communities. 40% of the public schools we serve have a school-based health center in the building.
But as we learned, a couple of years ago, we took a tour of the Washington Irving Campus where we do work, and there’s a school-based health center, and we were asking students where the school-based health center was… to go find it. They don’t even know that it’s there half the time, let alone where it is. They’re just highly under-utilized, and so there’s this really low-hanging fruit with young people which is: take them on a tour of the health center. Show them that it exists. That the people who work there are generally really nice, and that you won’t get a big sign on your head if you go; so the stigma gets removed, and that they’re free and confidential services. That is a big part of what it takes to get people to actually go get help.
Denver: You have done an external evaluation of the work that you do. It was conducted by the American Institutes of Research. You want to find out what’s working and what’s not working so well. What did you learn?
Louise: We learned so much. We, about now I guess seven years ago, we really stepped back from our growth. We had been growing from basically 2004 to 2011, every year. Really, we had been focused on filling the gap for health education where there was no health education, or there was very little health education. We were coming in and providing it based on our founding story.
In 2011, we stepped back, and we’ve been doing evaluations since the beginning. Most of the beginning, as we were college students, we had no idea what we were doing. So we evaluated to genuinely try to get that in not for anyone else’s purposes but we stepped back and said, “The evaluation we’ve done, it hasn’t been super rigorous. It’s been pre-, post-testing. It’s taught us some things about what students are learning, but it wasn’t with a control group. So we don’t really know whether or not our program was the thing that made the difference, and also it didn’t ask all the questions we wanted to ask. If we really want to actually deliver impact for young people, not just fill the gap, but actually help them make healthier decisions, we need to understand better. What are we good at? What are we not good at?”
We did undertake this pretty massive evaluation with American Institute of Research. With 4,000 students. And we did a couple of different quasi-experimental control trials–one, our standard program in the 9th grade, and another of our pilot program with 7th and 8th graders which I referenced earlier, and then a third one with a follow-on program doing our program, plus a booster in 10th grade, and then an exploratory study of our program, plus the school-based health center tours.
Also alongside that which we call summative… and many evaluators call summative evaluation or end-outcome focused evaluation, we also did a bunch of formative evaluation because the reason we are doing the summative was not just to learn what worked, but why. So we can make it better. So we did a lot of formative assessment like exit slips from when students and teachers were leaving classrooms, etc…
We learned a ton. Highlights were that we had significantly more impact on mental health and sexual health than substances. We actually had no positive impact on substances. Thankfully, no negative impact either. That’s not to be taken for granted. But it was eye-opening. Really taught us that whatever we’re doing, which by the way unfortunately was consistent with a lot of what’s happening in the field. It just isn’t showing results. Mental health and sexual health were also really helpful to see the impact on, in particular on increasing young people’s knowledge on things like giving and getting consent, their ability to recognize the warning signs of depression. Then their skill to actually give and get consent increased and their ability to go get help.
So, one of the biggest outcomes we saw positively was that in our exploratory study with the school-based health center tour, we saw a really significant increase in the number of young people in our program who went to use a school-based health center specifically for mental health and sexual health. So things like going to talk to a trusted adult more, going to talk to a counselor, going to get contraception. That was eye-opening for us too because we thought first of all, we’ve got to fix the substance abuse stuff and figure out how to actually have an impact on it. And second of all, if we’re seeing great results or promising results around mental health and sexual health and in particular on getting young people to get help, then that really can show us that our role is to empower young people in the classroom, build these trusting relationships with them and the college students, but also ensure that they’re actually getting help when they need it and preventing health problems before they start. And being this link to care that simplified and clarified our role.
Denver: I think the principals and the college students thought highly of it as well, right?
Louise: Definitely. We got some really good feedback from our schools. We did a lot of evaluation on what their experience and levels of satisfaction looked like. College students as well, and I think in particular with college students what we saw and have continued to see in evaluations is that, this experience with Peer Health Exchange was really the formative experience for them in college in a couple of ways. One, for college students, it built community on college campuses; in particular, actually, this is really important for our equity core value: For students who are going to commuter schools and who typically were carrying much bigger loads because they were oftentimes students of color and other marginalized identities, who were showing up at college with incredible responsibilities like working one or two jobs, maybe having family responsibilities, and going to college– that Peer Health Exchange at our best could be for them a real community on campus of like-minded, values aligned people.
We have just incredible stories of just that component of literally college students with us who have met all their best friends at Peer Health Exchange, who have gotten married to someone; not that that’s the purpose, but it’s a great part of the value we can provide. The other thing we heard from college students was that it really shapes their careers and helps them get jobs. I think a lot of that is due to the fact that their experience that if they want to become a teacher, this experience really showed them what is it like to teach. For those that did want to go into teaching, what’s really compelling to us now is we literally have programs where our college student volunteers– if they apply are fast-tracked in the application process like at Teach America or even at some of our schools in LA. There are literally organizations that are holding teaching positions for Peer Health Exchange volunteers every year because they just know that they are going to be stronger teachers coming in and they really are committed or in the health front.
We’ve had many more students who decided to go into public health or decided to go into adolescent medicine and feel that Peer Health Exchange is the thing that both convinced them to do that, but also helped them get into graduate school or get that job, which I think especially for college students today, especially for college students who are sharing the backgrounds with young people we serve and more and more actually got Peer Health Exchange in high school which is the best possible example. The amount of barriers they face to getting a job are huge, so anything in college that can help them to actually get the skills they need to get that job is…
Denver: Gives them an edge. I’m so glad that you took a look at that too. Sometimes we spend so much time focusing on the beneficiaries, but it’s the people who are actually volunteering that can get as much, if not more sometimes, out of these programs. We mentioned a few moments ago that we are in New York. You talked about some of the colleges you’re working with, and I know you have a pretty significant presence in the city. Tell us a little bit about the high schools that you’re working with.
Louise: New York City Peer Health Exchange is really the very first site, and it’s still in so many ways the leader of the pack for us in terms of our sites. It’s doing incredible work and has a large presence and deep partnership with schools in New York City. This past year, we had 500 college student volunteers. They serve over 5,000 ninth graders in almost 50 high schools in New York in 4 boroughs.
Next year, we’ll launch for the first time in Staten Island, so all 5 boroughs. Really excited to be in deep partnership with Staten Island who, as some folks know, has had among other things, a real problem with the opioid crisis and so has reached out to us about two years ago to start conversations about what it would take to bring Peer Health Exchange to Staten Island, in part in that context. We do partner deeply with individual schools, the ones we work with. We also partner deeply with the New York City Department of Education and the New York City Department of Health and Mental Hygiene, which of course magically is in New York. It is the example for the whole country to share an office of school wellness between the two departments, just how it should be.
And our New York City Executive Director, Rachel Peters, has a great relationship with some of the incredible people that run that office. They, together with many other partner organizations in New York, have really advocated to the City Council and others to advance health education as not only a requirement, but a funded requirement. There’s been some really exciting progress on that this spring where City Council just decided to have some additional funding go towards health education across the city of New York, and we are just honored and thrilled to be a small part of that. But it’s been really critical to be part of a larger movement in New York City.
Denver: What’s your business model, your mix of philanthropy? I know we have some earned revenue. You’re trying to get these schools to put some skin in the game. Maybe some of your key partnerships.
Louise: For the longest time, we were pretty much entirely philanthropically funded and thankfully have a pretty cost-efficient model because we’re training these incredible college students who do this as volunteers. But we have found in the last few years and have started to change the business model to better reflect the long-term systems change we want to see in the sense, like you said, we have started to ask schools to share the cost of the program. We’ll have this year actually $400,000 of our overall revenue coming from public school partners, which represents about 13% of our local operating cost. Good start.
A huge testament to these schools, by the way. It’s not as though they have a line in the budget for health education. They are coming up with these funds amidst many other demands. So we just have so much respect for these schools that find ways to do this.
The other partnerships we have that are not just philanthropic are with health institutions, and that’s been really deliberate on our part, where we’ve asked our hospital partners in community to contribute to the costs of Peer Health Exchange wherever there’s a benefit also to them in their work to extend their reach in the community, or to do more evaluation and innovation around what the hospital is doing. For example, in New York City, we have a wonderful partnership with the NYU Langone Department of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry run by Helen Egger, who’s such a total visionary ,and has with her team committed to not only helping to fund the Peer Health Exchange in New York, but being a real evaluation partner with us. UCSF in San Francisco and Stanford have done that as well. That’s been really critical. So the dream is that over time, these two sources of funding; schools and health systems, will become a bigger part of what our revenue model looks like.
Denver: Let me pick up on that, and let me get you out on this, Louise. You have said you have a way of envisioning the future, sometimes in the extreme– the outrageous possibilities for the Peer Health Exchange on one hand, and the worst case scenarios– just so you can prepare for them on the other. But taking that former, if everything aligns and falls into place, what do you see as the potential for the Peer Health Exchange over the next decade.
Louise: I really believe that the dream for Peer Health Exchange over the next decade would look like all young people in this country getting to have effective health education in school so they are prepared to make healthy decisions in life. And I think the way that we could get there would look like more and more schools actually doing health education in partnership with us and on their own, and really owning the responsibility and the ability to deliver that effectively.
The real dream on top of that is that the health partners and community organizations around those schools would actually see their job as going all the way outside the walls of the hospital and into the schools to partner with the schools to help enable that health education, that helps enable young people to get to the health resources before there’s a problem. I picture a day where those two systems are not separate. They’re really focused on the child, and they’re actually together serving the child where the child needs it most. We’re not talking in 10 years about the cuts for health education, but instead saying: what schools do for young people is help them become healthy, brilliant citizens that can contribute significantly to society.
Denver: A very nice dream that I think we can all buy into. Louise Langheier, the co-founder and CEO of Peer Health Exchange, I want to thank you so much for being here this evening. Tell us about your website and how listeners can become engaged and support your work.
Louise: Wonderful. Yes, so our website is www.peerhealthexchange.org, and we would love to have you visit us and get engaged in a number of ways, whether you’re a young person who wants to bring this program to your college or your high school, a teacher or principal who wants to do the same, a community partner in a hospital or healthcare institution, or a philanthropist who wants to make a donation; it will take every single one of those to make this work happen well. So, we hope you will join us.
Denver: Great. Thanks Louise. It was great pleasure to have you on the program.
The Business of Giving can be heard every Sunday evening between 6:00 p.m. and 7:00 p.m. Eastern on AM 970 The Answer in New York and on iHeartRadio. You can follow us @bizofgive on Twitter, @bizofgive on Instagram and at http://www.facebook.com/BusinessOfGiving