The following is a conversation between Kenneth Dudek, Executive Director of Fountain House, and Denver Frederick, Host of The Business of Giving on AM 970 The Answer in New York City.
Denver: The Hilton Humanitarian Prize is the world’s largest annual humanitarian award and is presented to a nonprofit organization judged to have made an extraordinary contribution toward alleviating human suffering. There have only been 22 ever awarded, and only one to an organization that addresses mental illness. That organization is Fountain House, and it’s a pleasure to have with us the Executive Director of Fountain House, Kenneth Dudek. Good evening, Ken, and welcome to The Business of Giving.
Ken: Great to be here.
Denver: Let’s start on the steps of the New York Public Library back in the 1940s. Share with listeners the founding story of Fountain House.
Ken: Basically, you had a group of people who are ex-patients from Rockland State Hospital– seven ex-patients from Rockland State Hospital,– and they got together, and they formed a group that was called WANA which stands for We Are Not Alone. The WANA Group then hooked up with two volunteers. One of them was Elizabeth Schermerhorn, very famous New York name, and the other one was Hetty Richard. Between the two volunteers and the seven people, they formed a social program. They bought a building on West 47th Street in Hell’s Kitchen, where we are to this day, 70 years later.
Denver: And, the story behind Fountain?
Ken: It’s not complicated. People want it to be more than what it is, but basically, in the backyard of the original building that was Fountain House, there was a fountain, and that was it. That’s all there is to it. There is no water imagery or anything like that.
Denver: You’re a very practical and logical organization. Now, I know where it started.
Let us take a step back, Ken. What is mental illness? How is it defined? And what does it include?
Ken: Mental illness covers a wide scope of emotional and thinking disorders. The ones that Fountain House focuses on are the most serious illnesses of schizophrenia and bipolar and serious depression as well. Schizophrenia is really a thinking disorder. Bipolar is really an emotional disorder or a disorder of emotions. Basically, that’s a simple definition of what it is. It’s what people used to refer to in the old days when they would say that people were having a nervous breakdown.
I once attended a conference on stigma, and they did all this research about what was the most acceptable term around these illnesses, and I found that nervous breakdown was a very old-fashioned term. Basically, it’s people who used to spend time in state mental hospitals for many, many years. Nowadays, no one does that anymore, or very few people do. It’s an illness which, with the right kind of support and treatment, people do reasonably well in the community.
Denver: What percentage of the population in this country has some sort of mental illness?
Ken: The common statistic is one in four.. If you’re looking at the most serious illnesses like schizophrenia, it’s 1% of the population. The interesting thing about that 1% on schizophrenia, that’s around the world. Basically, there’s 1% in every country, in every socio-economic status, there is 1% of the people with schizophrenia. On bipolar, it’s about 3% to 4% of the population. The World Health Organization says that basically there are 450 million people around the world who have mental health issues of one type or another.
Denver: You’re going to be doing a conference with them coming up, aren’t you?
Ken: Yes. In the fall, we’ve partnered up with the World Health Organization, with Grand Challenges Canada, with Cities Rise, with a division of Columbia University, and we’re putting on a conference basically to look at the issue of early mortality of people with serious mental illness because unfortunately, people with serious mental illness die as early as 25 years earlier than most people do. It’s unbelievable.
In Fountain House, we live in a community of people. There are many people at Fountain House; there’s 1,500 people a year at Fountain House. We see people who we know very well who die at a very young age. We have a memorial project that we do. For us, this is a very real issue. This is not like some kind of statistic out there in the world. This is about people that we know and love. So, we’re very invested in trying to make that better.
To me, the biggest problem for people with serious mental illness in this day and age is isolation.
Denver: That really hits home. We’ve had several guests on the show involved in the criminal justice system. They’ve made the point that prison is a far too common an answer for dealing with the mental health crisis in this country. Do you know how many of those people serving time in jail have some kind of mental disorder?
Ken: I don’t know the number. The most tragic number I’ve ever heard–I’ve been working in the field of community mental health for about 35-40 years– and the number that was the most disappointing to me was that I found out that the number of people in jails and prisons with mental health issues is about the same number of people who used to be in the state hospitals back in the 50s. And so that to me was very disturbing. Clearly, what’s happened is, there’s been a failure in the deinstitutionalization movement of closing the state hospitals because a lot of those people have ended up in jail and prison, and that’s really unfortunate… or homeless.
Denver: The Fountain House Clubhouse International model… and you can get to Clubhouse International and explain to us what it is in a moment… it’s been tremendously admired and replicated across the world. How does it work? What is the underlying philosophy?
Ken: I’ve come to a new way of describing it. When someone has a serious mental illness, they basically need three things to really do well and to grow and to live in the community. The three things are: good psychiatric care, which I would describe as primarily medication with a little bit of therapy. Then, good medical care, which is the thing we were talking about earlier on the health thing. The third thing is something that in the public health sector they refer to as social determinants of health, which is basically, the rest of your life actually. In Fountain House, we translate that into the work and housing and education. To me, the biggest problem for people with serious mental illness in this day and age is isolation. What happens to people is that they live in the community, but they are really totally isolated from the community; and that’s not a good thing.
Fountain House was formed as a place to help the people coming out of those state hospitals to settle back into the community.
Denver: How does community work as therapy?
Ken: Basically, the entire community of Fountain House is structured as a place where you come; it’s a community center. The house in Fountain House doesn’t reflect housing. It actually reflects: we come out of the settlement house movement. Settlement houses were places that helped new immigrants in the country to settle into the United States. Fountain House was formed as a place to help the people coming out of those state hospitals to settle back into the community.
So, what we did was we created this center on 47th Street where people come every day if they choose; it’s all voluntary, and they participate in the activities of the house. They help run the house; so the house is partially run by the members as well as the professional staff. In exchange for that, we help the members get jobs, go to school, find a place to live. Basically, whatever they need in order to be able to survive in the community and thrive in the community, actually become citizens of the country.
Denver: You really focus on the strength and abilities, and not on their illness.
Ken: We have a special relationship with a place called the Baer Center which is a clinic which provides the psychiatric services that I described and the medical part of it. At Fountain House, we believe that the illness is real, and that people need to take the medication. On the other hand, what we know is what’s going to help somebody in their recovery, in their rehabilitation, is to really be an active participant and to do something. And the way you do that is you build on people’s strengths.
John Beard, who is the original director of Fountain House basically used to say ,”If I can find a healthy thumbnail, I can make it work from there.” I believe that’s really one of the great strengths of the Fountain House community approach in that sometimes you think it’s going to be the big things like: get a job or go to school or get a house; it often is not the beginning of somebody’s rehabilitation. Oftentimes, it’s when somebody decides they’re just going to help out a little bit, and they see some other people helping out, and they say, “I’m going to do that.” Because one of the terrible things about this illness is, it basically takes away from your self-esteem. It makes you feel like you’re worthless. The first thing I think that we’re always about is saying, “Listen, we’re going to show you that you are a worthwhile person, and you have a lot to contribute.” That really begins people’s recovery, and then they start making other kinds of connections, and they’re able to move on.
But I believe very strongly in the idea that people have to have a place to come to. They have to have this kind of community center because if people don’t have that, it’s very difficult to coordinate all the activities that people have in their lives. If you always know as a member that there’s this place that I can go to, and they’re going to help me with whatever the thing is I need help with, that’s always going to make the big difference.
Fragmented services in mental services have existed my entire career. People keep coming up with different formulas for how they’re going to organize that, but oftentimes it comes from a government level like state, city. They’re saying, we’re going to have a good structure. Here’s the structure. We have one of these, we have one of these, we have one of these. But if you’re the person on the bottom looking up, and you’re saying, “Well, I’ve got to go over to Broadway to get this, I’ve got to go over to the east side to get that.” It’s not going to happen first of all, but it also is very confusing to people. Whereas, if I know I can go to Hell’s Kitchen to 47th Street to Fountain House, and they’re going to help me with the things I need help with, that’s clearer. So, I think what needs to happen in New York City and in lots of places is there have to be many more programs like Fountain House so that people know where to go, where to get the help.
Denver: People need to be needed. There’s no question about it. Speaking about a lot more, let’s talk a little bit about Clubhouse International. Who are they?
Ken: Fountain House was the original Clubhouse for many years. Over time, we received a training grant from the National Institute of Mental Health, so many new programs were developed. There are 300 around the world. Then there came a moment when a lot of those programs really wanted to have a voice in all the work that we were doing. So, we all jointly formed this organization together. It had a different name in the beginning, but now it’s called Clubhouse International.
A lot of what they do now is they do the accreditation because quality became the really big issue for us in terms of developing new programs. There are 300 clubhouses that we in Clubhouse International claim. There probably are a thousand places in the country who invoke Fountain House’s name or other places. It becomes an issue sometimes for us because people get very confused about our message and who we are. So, we’ve tried to really work on the quality issue of the programming.
Denver: You spoke a moment ago about employment, and it’s about 15% of people with mental illness are employed in this country. What would that number be for the members of Fountain House?
Ken: It’s a little between 40% and 60% depending on who you’re talking about. We have a very extensive employment program. We’re known for developing one particular… those who know us from our old days if you will, know us as the people who developed transitional employment, which is one technique for helping people go to work. But since then, we have all kinds of variations. We have supported employment, which is kind of a more permanent situation.
The latest thing that we’re into is: we’ve been doing the social enterprises where we’ve been forming these businesses and with the members themselves being the primary owners of the businesses and with our added support behind them. So we have a delivery service called Jack Rabbit. We have a catering company called Clever Cheetah. You’ll notice the animal theme going on here. We have a bunch.
We initially started off using… we’ve been doing it about seven years now. We started with one formula which didn’t work for us. Now, we found a really good formula that works really, really well. I’d say we have about five businesses, and we probably in that grouping have 40 people that are working. And it’s had a lot of different benefits that work for us. We’re very committed to employment because we know that even when people are working part time, it immediately impacts their recovery and rehabilitation. You can see it. You can physically see people change when they go to work. It’s really incredible to watch.
Denver: It’s a very thoughtful programming. You even have an absentee coverage program.
Ken: Yes. On transitional employment– which is still one of our core programs and one that I believe deeply in– it’s particularly good for people who have had no work history, which a lot of our people haven’t. So, in order to help people in the beginning, we basically tell the employer that we will guarantee the job, so the first person to go into training is a social worker from Fountain House who learns the job, and then they’re the teacher of the person who goes on the job, and the member comes in as part of that mix. That’s one of the great guarantees we make on the transitional employment program that we will cover the job. I personally have worked TE jobs. I used to work for Broadridge. I used to drive out to Long Island once a week with a group of people, and we used to do some proxy sorting actually.
Denver: You had a startling statistic before saying that the life expectancy of somebody with mental illness can be as much as 25 years shorter than average. I can only imagine that health and wellness are quite important at Fountain House. Tell us about some of those programs.
Ken: About 10 years ago maybe, we started focusing on this issue because it’s an interesting thing. For many years, people with serious mental illness, the people didn’t pay as much attention to their health because their mental health issues were pretty serious. Actually, what happened to us is, as I said, we are a community of people, so when things happen in our community we pay attention. We had four people die who were under the age of 40 in a short period of time, like within a month or two months, and it just shocked their whole community. So, we just started paying attention to the issue.
We started a grouping. We ended up having an entire center now. The top of our building is the Adam and Peter Lewis Wellness Center. Peter Lewis was the founder of Progressive Insurance and Flo… to those who know the commercials. Peter and Adam gave us this money. We have a gym in our building. At Fountain House, we have many floors, and each floor has two functions. They support the members who work within that floor, and they have a function for the entire house. So, the wellness unit’s function is to pay attention to the wellness of all the members of Fountain House.
We also do linkages with the Baer Center, which is where the primary care doc is… as well as, we’re about to have a race, which I guess I would be remiss to not point out. We have what we refer to as the One-in-Four 5K. The one and four is of course the number of people with mental illness in the country. That is going to be on April 7th, on Saturday in Riverside Park. If you just go to our website, you can see all the information about it. We welcome everybody to come and walk and run with us. We’re as many walkers as runners. Don’t be afraid if you’re not a runner. It’s a good place to come. I’ll be there. Oftentimes, Gale Brewer is there. She’s a remarkable person. She’s been to two, three of our things. April 7th is not always the warmest day of the year. You have to bring your snow skis this year.
Denver: When these members come to Fountain House– and it is all voluntary as you said before– they pick a unit, don’t they, in which to work. Explain that a little bit.
Ken: A member joins, and the criteria for membership with Fountain House is basically that you have a serious mental illness, and you want to join Fountain House, and you have at least some thought about moving forward. It didn’t have to be a big thought. Then you come in to Fountain House and there, basically, you get a tour. You get to join one of seven units in Fountain House. That’s basically your home base within Fountain House, because Fountain House itself is fairly large. It’s about 60,000 square feet. It’s a big place.
Once the member joins that place, that unit, they basically then also get to pick their own worker. There tends to be five social workers attached to every unit within Fountain House, each of which has a group of members that they work with. Once you’ve picked that worker, and then you start working on your tasks, every unit has abilities to get you into the jobs, into the housing. You don’t have to go to another place in Fountain House. Once you have your worker and you have your unit, they’re going to help you go basically any place you want to go and get whatever you need to do.
Denver: Why don’t you share with us a story or two of your members and what Fountain House meant to them and to their families?
Ken: I’ll start with a family story because we do a little bit of work with families, and we’re always in touch with people’s families, and the more younger people we get, the more connected they are with their families. Some of the older members are not as connected. We did a meeting one time. We were going to invite all the families of Fountain House people, so we had a couple of hundred people basically show up. We thought, “Okay, we should really be doing more with the families.” So, we started talking to the families, and the families said to us basically that when their brother, sister, son, or daughter came to Fountain House, it was a great thing not just for the person, but also for the family of the person because it took off some of the burden. Families can’t carry this alone, and there are some great wonderful family people who are connected to this. They just can’t do it themselves. When the member comes to Fountain House, the family also gets a little bit of relief.
I’ll talk about a friend of mine, Barry. Fountain House has a large minority group within its membership. Barry is an African-American member of Fountain House who had a very tough childhood. Actually spent time in Detroit… basically hears voices, and he talks about it openly. So, I feel comfortable talking about it. Basically struggled a whole lot of his life. When he came to Fountain House, he wasn’t quite sure what he was going to do. That’s why I was saying earlier. People don’t have to have a really clear goal. They just have to think, I need something. I need some kind of help. He would kind of float in and float out for a little bit, which a lot of people do in the beginning. We don’t have a requirement that you have to be there nine to five or five days a week even.
We like to see people because the one statistic that we know is true is that the more time you spend at Fountain House, the quicker your recovery is going to go. Barry comes in and, to make a long story short, he ends up going to work and becomes a peer counsellor, and he’s working now with other people.
Another story is Betty, who actually spoke at the Hilton Humanitarian Prize. When Betty originally came to Fountain House, she referred to herself as the plant lady. She worked in our horticulture unit, now called Home and Garden. They recently changed the name. She had been homeless on the streets. She really had struggled. She was in and out of hospitals. She just came to Fountain House and started doing this one little piece. She then decided to go back to school. She’s a young woman. She decided to go back to school. She got an undergraduate degree. This spring, she’s going to graduate with her Master’s degree in Social Work. That’s only part of her story, but it’s a great part of her story. She always says to me that she’s looking for my job. I always love it. I love it.
Denver: Beyond the stories, have you conducted studies… or have others that measure the effectiveness of Fountain House and Clubhouse International Model?
Ken: I have two answers to this. I and Fountain House are committed to doing much more research on this subject to show the efficacy of different things, not just the efficacy of the Fountain House model, but the idea that social determinants are going to make a big difference in people’s lives. There’s more and more research in other illnesses, as well as mental illness, that the social determinants of people’s lives have a big impact on their health, and you can reduce the cost of healthcare if you focus on those things.
Second thing is: NYU did a study for us around the issue of hospitalization because this is in the new managed care world… issues of hospitalization and emergency room use have become a very big deal. Basically, what we found is this: Fountain House… for its people who were heavily using the system before, which means they were in the hospital a lot, they use emergency rooms a lot, we were able to reduce that by 21%, which is a fairly significant number. We believe that if we can do this in combination with the Baer Center, where we have some sense of a psychiatric coverage and the medical coverage, we can expand that number even more.
We have four other studies going on connected to Fountain House. Some of them are qualitative studies, and some of them are quantitative studies. It’s hard sometimes to do the quantitative studies in our work, but we’re very committed to doing it. We’ve adapted a model a little bit like NARSAD, where we fund a researcher at a university who’s interested in some topic that’s of interest to Fountain House. For example, right now, we have some researchers from Yale who are doing a study on loneliness, which is their twist on the social isolation story. And they have a whole explanation of why loneliness, as opposed to isolation. So, that’s really important to us; we pick topics that we know our membership cares about or Fountain House, the larger, cares about, and those are the kinds of things we’re looking at.
Denver: Let’s turn to funding. You hear many say, in the context of some of these tragic school shootings, that it’s not a gun issue, but a mental health issue. The question I have for you Ken is: What is the investment that the federal/ local/ state government is making towards mental health?
Ken: I think there is not adequate funding for mental health. On the other hand, the other problem I see is that the money that is being spent on mental health doesn’t match the problem. Where the money is being spent doesn’t quite match what the issues are. When people say there’s a problem with people with serious mental illness, they’re going in the hospitals too much; they’re homeless; they’re in the jails. Then you would think the money to support those people, that it would be connected to those issues. It’s not often connected to those issues and it’s not often the thing that somebody needs. It goes to other kinds of mental health issues. I would never say that those things are not worthwhile. But I’m a person who focuses on people with serious mental illness. A lot of the people that people talk about when they’re talking about homeless, in jails, are people with serious mental illness; there’s not enough funds that get into that grouping in a good way.
You and I were having conversation earlier about how we’ve been stuck at 300 clubhouses in our development, and people always say to me when they come to Fountain House, they say, “This is a wonderful place. How come there aren’t more of these places in the world?” I’ve been hearing that for so many years. I finally have a really good answer. The real reason there aren’t more places like Fountain House is because of the government funding streams. There is not adequate funding streams for places like Fountain House, and they don’t come in a way that make it easy for people to use.
Medicaid is a perfect example. Medicaid is the biggest funder of public health in the country, but it doesn’t work very easily for places like Fountain House. Although, there are places throughout the country who make some of that work, it’s always jury rigging the thing. So what I believe is, if we could figure out a way to get Medicaid into a case-rate system, that would work really well for both the members of Fountain House and the members of other places around the country and would actually support the things that are necessary.
Because Medicaid will pay enough; some people would argue, not enough, but they will pay for the psychiatric care. They will pay for the medical care, but when it comes to the social determinants, there’s not a lot of funding available for that. I think that that’s the future. New York State has been trying to make this work. I think that there’s some initiatives that they have going on right now which may end up with something good, but I don’t know right now. I’m not 100% sure. The thing I’m very clear about is: if people want more places like Fountain House, they have to address this issue of funding. Because that’s really what makes a big difference.
Fountain House itself is able to do a lot of its innovative work because we raise a lot of money privately. But I don’t know that that’s a formula for the expansion of programs throughout the country. I actually think that every not-for-profit like Fountain House should raise a certain amount of private money, but I think it should be supplementary to the government funding of the base of the program. So, that’s what I think about it.
Denver: I think to get any kind of real leverage and scale, government has to be involved in a very meaningful way. There’s no question about that.
Ken: And I think there’s a lot of foundations and individuals who are interested in the innovative parts of the work, always, but it’s hard to get the money for the general operation, and that’s true for many social service programs.
Denver: Tell us a little bit about your workplace culture, which is interesting because it is so influenced by the members. How would you describe your corporate culture? And what are some of the things that you think makes it really special?
Ken: It goes back to that issue. The community of Fountain House is not only beneficial to the membership. It is beneficial to the staff. I have staff unlike other mental health programs, I do not have a high turnover rate. I have staff, people who have worked with me for 20 years, and not just one or two, many. I think that the reason is is because if you create a good culture in the place, it works for the membership, and it works for the staff. What does that mean? It means that you try to allow for as much decision-making at the lowest levels of the organization. You allow the membership to be part of decision-making wherever it’s realistic, and I never try to make believe there aren’t certain places that membership can’t make the decision. Because legally, the bottom line stops with me in some places. But wherever we can, we try to push it down.
I think when people feel connected in that way and feel as though they’re having a big impact on their life and their own work, it makes a very big difference. Part of how we got into social enterprises was because there was this whole group of members who we weren’t serving any employment piece… couldn’t do the other kind that we had, and we just found a new way to go.
The wellness issue was the same thing. The wellness issue, I would tell you, was driven as much by the membership as anybody else in Fountain House. The culture of Fountain House is this kind of collaborative culture and decision-making. We have a pretty flat hierarchy too. I have an open-door policy. If you ever come to visit me at Fountain House, it’s not unusual that three or four people will come in in the course of that meeting. It’s really very funny sometimes. You learn a lot about other people that way because some people react to that. They really have a reaction to it. It’s uncomfortable. It’s not a good reaction.
People say, one of the things I focus on when hiring staff is I think about: what skills are we looking for in hiring the staff? I’ve gotten to understand that one of them is that the staff person has to be able to be comfortable in this environment, which is a little bit chaotic. If you come to Fountain House, a lot of people don’t see the structure. The structure is not obvious. In other kinds of programs, if you’re doing therapy, you go 9 to 10, 10 to—it’s not like that at Fountain House.
The structure of Fountain House is within the units. There’s an organizing meeting in the morning. There’s an organizing meeting in the afternoon, but then the rest of the time it’s just the work of the unit that’s going on. But there’s a structure there. There are other structures underneath all of that. But when you’re in that environment, it’s always moving. So, every staff person in Fountain House who works within the program part of it really has to be able to deal with the groupings of members. We’re really not a place where if someone says,” I’m really good with individual one-on-one,” I’ll say that’s needed, but not here.
Denver: An adaptive mindset comes in handy.
Ken: Flexible. I’m a big believer in complexity theory that can go down that path, but I won’t go there. I really believe that this kind of organization that occurs is kind of the self-organizing thing that happens. Fountain House is the most incredible example of this culture. There’s this other field called positive psychology. We predated all that. John Beard was ahead of his time with this stuff. I would say that oftentimes when they’re talking about a positive psychology, they’re using this old framework of therapy which is a limited framework. I always like to say this about therapy. What actually happens in therapy? Well you got two people that sit in a room, and one of the people talks, and the other one listens. And then the other one talks, and the other one listens, and that’s pretty much it. Nobody in therapy – the reason that people come to therapy is because the therapist has a whole skill set and a whole bunch of knowledge about what they’re doing in that room.
Fountain House is the same way. My people have really clear thoughts about how they’re helping somebody in their recovery. Transitional employment. The reason we do this coverage is because the same staff person that’s working with that member in that unit is the person who goes with them on to the job. So, those jobs are pretty much extensions of our recovery process and our rehabilitation process. What often happens to members when they go on the job is that some of their symptoms will start to flare up a little bit, which is a natural process, and there’s nothing wrong with it. But if there’s a staff person around some of the time who they know and they can just talk to when they go back to Fountain House, they can talk to them; it really helps them to recover.
Denver: Let me close with this, Ken. Do you believe that we, as a society, are making any progress in removing the stigma around mental illness? What things would you like to see happen to move the needle faster on that?
Ken: What I believe about this is more people who are connected… remember the one in four statistic, right. That’s one in four people who have the illness. When you extrapolate that to their families, you’re looking at a large number of people who know these illnesses, who are exposed to these illnesses, but because of the prejudice of it… there’s this very big prejudice against these particular illnesses that are unique to other things. What I believe is, the more people who speak out about this, the better it will be; and that the more we are able to expose our membership to the world so that people know them as people, it will immediately… it goes right at the issue if you will. I think some of the larger campaigns… some of which I’ve been a part of… have an impact, but the biggest impact is always going to be as people know people and people are more open.
I think that bipolar in particular has made some great strides in the last 10 years or more. I think schizophrenia is still the bad one that we need to overcome, and it’s too scary to people, and it shouldn’t be scary to people. I’ve spent my entire life with people with schizophrenia and bipolar, and I’m here to tell you that they are a great group of people. That’s the reason I do this work. It is a remarkable, resilient group of people. If I had been knocked down as much as some of our members have been knocked down, I’m not sure I could get up again. But this group of people, they get up every day. They want to go to work. They want to go to school. It’s such an incredible group of people.
Denver: That’s a great note to end on. Kenneth Dudek, the Executive Director of Fountain House, I want to thank you so much for coming in this evening. Tell us about your website and the kind of information you provide there.
Ken: It’s easy. You can just go to www.fountainhouse.org, and you can learn a lot about Fountain House, and you can see any of our activities that are coming up, like the One In Four 5K or the conference in the Fall. You can get to learn more about us. There is a link there also to Clubhouse International. If you have an interest in other places in the country, that’s another good way to do it. That’s pretty much it.
Denver: Thank you very much Kenneth. It was a real pleasure to have you on the show.
Ken: Thank you very much.
Denver: I’ll be back with more of The Business of Giving right after this.