The following is a conversation between Aaron Hurst, CEO of Imperative, and Denver Frederick, Host of The Business of Giving on AM 970 The Answer.
Denver: One of the things we discuss on The Business of Giving, as much as anything else I suspect, is the corporate culture of nonprofit organizations and social good businesses. That is why I’m so delighted to have with us this evening, Aaron Hurst, one of my favorite thinkers on the topic and the pioneer of purpose-driven work. Aaron launched the pro bono service market by founding the Taproot Foundation in 2001, authored the best-selling book The Purpose Economy several years back, and is now the CEO of Imperative, a technology platform helping people to discover purpose in their work. Good evening, Aaron and welcome to The Business of Giving!
Aaron: Thrilled to be here with you.
Denver: I have always encountered people who are purpose-driven in their work and those who are simply not, but it sure does seem like we’re talking about it a lot more frequently these days than we have in the past, perhaps in large part because of you and your work. When did this subject first grab you, Aaron?
Aaron: I’ve been interested in work and how do we make work more meaningful since I was probably in high school. My grandfather was the original author of the blueprint for the Peace Corps, and a lot of that was really about the same idea of nobility of work and how work can be transformational. When I went to the University of Michigan, it was really what I studied, and really saw that service and work are all interconnected, and that we had lost our sense of the nobility of work in the American culture. I really have seen it as my journey to figure out: how do we bring that nobility back, because work is powerful; it’s so transformational, and it’s so much of what provides value in our lives.
Denver: It kind of got perverted along the way, didn’t it?
Aaron: Yes, went a little bit off track.
Denver: So much of your current work was informed by the venture you started some 16 years ago, the Taproot Foundation, which really continues to have a profound impact on the entire nonprofit sector, not to mention all the individual people who are engaged. How did that idea work?
Aaron: The Taproot Foundation was a really simple idea. I think good ideas tend to be simple with the right timing, which is the good luck part. But the basic idea is nonprofits need marketing, technology, HR, finance just like big companies do, but they’re typically priced out of the market; they’re not able to afford those services. So the idea was: how could we create a giant consulting firm where all the labor was pro bono and not paid work? And how could we recruit business professionals– who are inherently generous– to donate not just their time, not just their money but their skills to help provide these services? And over the course of a dozen years, we worked there. We went from becoming the small little nonprofit to the largest nonprofit consulting firm in the world, to then realizing that was kind of a fool’s destination because we were still only serving a tiny percentage of the market. We really switched the whole strategy to focus instead on: How do we create a whole marketplace for pro bono services?
By the time I left, it was about a $15 billion a year market in the US, with affiliates in 30 countries. It was amazing to see– from China to Costa Rica– this sort of business attitude around doing good using your skills is universal. It’s not just an American thing.
Denver: And when you look at purpose and work, what were some of the insights you were able to take away after having done that for a dozen of years or so?
Aaron: It took a while. It took me about 5 years to figure out because you have to manage teams, and you can’t pay them; you can’t promote people. You’ve really got to use intrinsic motivation. You can’t use extrinsic motivation. That’s why I always say, “You’re not truly an outstanding manager until you can manage volunteers.” That’s the true test of whether or not someone’s an effective leader and an effective manager.
Denver: That’s a great point.
Aaron: I think I learned a ton about the attitudes that people bring to their work. I learned a lot about what the diversity is of things that motivate people, and not everyone gets purpose from the same things. But I learned most importantly– no surprise to you, given your work– people are inherently generous; people inherently want work to be meaningful, but we just need to create more avenues for that. And we need to help create a narrative that supports it.
…When we grow as human beings, as we move forward and push past fears, we gain a sense of meaning…
Denver: Let me pick up on your point there. You said people don’t get purpose from the same things; it doesn’t come in “one size fits all.” What you’re saying is: it’s got a variety of flavors. Give us a couple of those different flavors of where people find purpose in their work.
Aaron: So there’s a couple of different ways of looking at it, but the most important one I look at is: there are three core sources of meaning in our work. One is relationships. So when we have strong relationships at work, that’s an incredible source of meaning in work. The second is impact, but it doesn’t have to be impact in the nonprofit sense of it. It can simply be having a co-worker smile, building a product that makes someone’s life a little bit easier… brings a little bit of delight to someone’s life. And the third is growth. When we grow as human beings, as we move forward and push past fears, we gain a sense of meaning, which is why purpose really isn’t something that the nonprofit sector has an exclusive on.
I find people in jobs like accountants at large accounting firms that have incredible meaning in their work because they have all three of those things. So we’ve tended to, I think, build this narrative that you have to work in the nonprofit sector; you need to be a nun; you need to be a doctor to have purpose. But I found people in jobs you would never expect to have purpose that are full of purpose because they approach jobs with the right attitude.
We’ve created such a system around efficiency that we don’t celebrate the craft– like whether it’s developing an amazing HR manual, doing your accounting right, doing coding that’s really elegant coding if you’re an engineer. That’s a craft, and when we just treat it as an input into a process, we downplay the craft of it. That’s where a lot of purpose is lost in our current workforce.
Denver: Sort of like a chef making a meal sometimes. They’re not doing it to get paid; they’re just looking at what they created, and they take tremendous pride in that.
Aaron: Absolutely! Yes. It goes for a lot of people…the craft of their work. This is where we talked really about how work’s getting perverted. We’ve created such a system around efficiency that we don’t celebrate the craft– like whether it’s developing an amazing HR manual, doing your accounting right, doing coding that’s really elegant coding if you’re an engineer. That’s a craft, and when we just treat it as an input into a process, we downplay the craft of it. That’s where a lot of purpose is lost in our current workforce.
Denver: You codified all of these in your book you wrote a couple of years ago called The Purpose Economy, and you referred to that as the fourth economy. Share with us that evolution if you would.
Aaron: My uncle actually coined the term” information economy”– which was the third economy– and wrote a dissertation when he was in Stanford, basically proving that we had entered that third economy… and talked about how we had gone from an agrarian economy where farming and working off the land was what generated economic output, to the industrial economy, to the information economy. But as I looked at his work, what I saw was the same things that triggered his thinking that a new economy was happening… that information economy was happening… I saw those new triggers that a fourth economy was coming.
As I looked at where the top companies are innovating, where I was looking at where the economy was going, where labor markets were going, it’s people’s quest for purpose, for meaning in their lives at work and outside of work that was actually driving the majority of innovation of the economy, and I believe we’re only a few years away from a real tipping point. And at this point, PwC actually just did a study and found that a majority of CEOs actually see 2020 as that tipping point where consumer and labor behavior is going to actually become majority purpose-driven… in terms of mindset versus a traditional model.
Denver: You’ve done an awful lot of research on this with entities such as NYU and others. Can you make any general assessments of who is more purpose-driven in their work as it relates to things like age or gender?
Aaron: So interestingly millennials are known as the purpose generation but, actually, from a psychological standpoint, they’re no more purpose-oriented than any other generation. What you see with them is actually with social media,everyone’s trying to build a personal brand. So for them, it’s a form of consumption, a form of identity. It’s not psychologically honest for all of those population. They’re really no different than any other generation.
Denver: I had a conversation with my daughter about that. She was talking about how we’re not as material, and we don’t try to keep up with the Jones’ by having a bigger house and a bigger car. But I did make that point: “You’re trying to outdo them on Facebook, aren’t you? In terms of who you are, and where you go, and your experiences…” So, I hear exactly what you’re saying.
Aaron: My parents are both Buddhist—Jewish descent, but Buddhist upbringing—and that community does a lot to talk about spiritual materialism – this idea of consuming spirituality is a form of consumer good. We see that now with yoga; you see it in a lot of different places. So I think there’s a piece that is “authentic” and parts that aren’t true.
But back to your original question, at age about 50, we see that there’s a jump in the number of people who are purpose-oriented. A lot of it has to do with: it’s the age where most people have a parent or someone they consider a peer pass away, and it causes them to evaluate what their priorities are. And then overwhelmingly, women are much more likely to be purpose-oriented than men. It’s about a 50% difference.
Denver: Huge, but not a surprise.
Aaron: Not a surprise to any of us that know women. I would say, if you have a bunch of candidates for a job, and you can’t tell anything else about them, always chose the woman over 55.
Denver: That’s the default.
Aaron: Yes. That’s the default. If you have no other options, that’s what you should default to.
Denver: What are the performance metrics of these purpose-driven employees? I know, anecdotally, they probably do a better job, but is there any hard data that shows it?
Aaron: What’s funny is most people intuitively think people who are money or status-oriented do a better job because they’re ambitious… and they’re the ones who are going to fight hard… and get the job done. In our research, we found the exact opposite was true. Purpose-oriented people are just as ambitious, but they’re ambitious about making an impact and not about themselves, and that’s actually a much more sustainable form of ambition.
So we saw that purpose-oriented people… when you isolated them psychologically… they’re the highest performers, longest expected tenure; their competencies were higher. Every single metric we looked at across the US, globally, different companies, purpose-oriented people were heads and shoulders above others for themselves, for their organization, for their own health. There really is no case to be made for status- or money-oriented mindset around work.
Denver: And there’s not that many of these, are there? What percentage of people would you say were purpose-driven in their work?
Aaron: High 30s, so like 37%, 38%, with another 35% that are open to it, and the remainder of the workforce is pretty entrenched in this fear-based model of work. Because the people who are status and money oriented – this is really important to understand so you don’t judge them – it comes from psychological deficit and fear. So, I think we really need to stop judging people that are in that mindset, and instead realize that there is something missing in their psychological makeup and their upbringing that’s preventing them from being able to really have a healthy relationship with work.
Write a job description about what relationships are you going to have on this job. What impact are you going to have? And how are you going to grow?… And then you need to re-evaluate all your HR systems… What we need to do is actually design them for our best people. We have to flip it around and look at every single piece of our HR systems and say “Is this designed to help purpose-oriented people or get in their way?”
Denver: So it only stands to reason, Aaron, that if these purpose-driven employees are doing a much, much better job, that if you’re in a nonprofit organization or company, you want to attract as many of them as you possibly can. What advice would you have for a company or an organization that wants to grow a purpose-driven workforce?
Aaron: A lot of the work I do now is helping companies think about—large nonprofits—How do we attract this incredible group of talent? And I think the key goes back to your earlier question about: What is purpose? And where do you get it? – relationships, impact, and growth.
So as you want to attract people, re-write your job descriptions. I’m surprised by how many nonprofits, for example, write this job description where the mission is buried. It’s all just about what you need to be able to do, what are the tasks of the job – that’s not inspiring. Write a job description about what relationships are you going to have on this job, what impact are you going to have, and how are you going to grow. That’s how you need to market your business; that’s how you need to market the job, that’s what’s going to attract that top talent.
And then you need to re-evaluate all your HR systems. Our HR systems in this economy, the information economy, are designed for status- and money-oriented people. They’re built on control and the assumption that people don’t want to be at work. What we need to do is actually design them for our best people. We have to flip it around and look at every single piece of our HR systems and say “Is this designed to help purpose-oriented people or get in their way?” And re-evaluate the whole system.
Denver: In my experience with the HR systems that I’ve encountered, they’re there to fix people, as opposed to get the right people in the first place. So, if I were to sort of switch it–or flip it on its lid, that’s what I would do.
Aaron: I think that’s exactly right. We’ve talked to HR leaders who started to use our methodology and our system, they said they no longer have to run a daycare, which is what they felt it was like before in HR. You’re just constantly taking care of people who’ve got these issues. When you hire people that come to the table wanting to work, who see work as a positive thing– that are there to help their colleagues– the whole function of HR completely changes.
Denver: So, if I am an employer and I have a candidate come in… and I want to ascertain as to whether they’re purpose-driven, what are some of the questions that I can ask them?
Aaron: You’ve got to look for a halo around their head that sort of glows out of their hair. This is what I think we do as a business: our platform is assess whether or not someone is likely purpose-oriented as they apply, but the recommendation I give is to ask three questions of candidates.
The first is ask them: “If you were to suddenly become independently wealthy, what would you do?” And the answer isn’t “I would still take this job” because that might not be the realistic answer. What you want to avoid is the golf-course/beach answer. You want to hear an answer that’s about relationships, impact, and growth, and that they’d want to use the freedom to be able to maximize those.
You want to look at—what’s really interesting, and you’ll appreciate this, is: Purpose-oriented people do this weird thing at work that’s totally inappropriate, which is they have friends. They actually have human relationships at work. So you can ask people questions like “Tell me about some of the people from past jobs you’re still in touch with.” And people who are not purpose-oriented tend to have transactional relationships, so they would only have transactional relationships with those former colleagues versus actual friendships.
And then finally, have them walk through their LinkedIn profile and ask them about major career decisions they’ve made, and listen for: “Were they motivated by money, status? Or was it around relationships, impact, and growth?” If they were looking for new relationships, making a bigger impact, and growing, you’re on the right track.
Denver: Those are great points, and I’ve even observed sometimes that the accountability function that employees have at work is more based on what their peers think than what management thinks. And it’s just a peer-to-peer type of world in which we live. So, let’s flip it a little bit. Let’s say I’m a candidate, and I’m going in looking for a job, and I want a purpose-driven organization, what can I ask? Or at least what should I be looking for?
Aaron: So the first thing I would say is: if it’s a large organization—I don’t know if there’s such a thing as a large purpose-driven organization—there’s probably pieces of that organization are and aren’t. It’s hard to evaluate a whole organization. That said, the number one thing I would look for is the gender or the leadership team. If you have an all-male or largely male executive team, your odds are low. If it’s largely female, your odds are much higher. That’s the number one thing I look for is: what does that leadership team look like? Beyond that, I would actually focus a lot more on the manager that you would be hired to work with and trying to determine what motivates them. Are they purpose-oriented? That’s what I would look for. It matters more than the organization.
You’ve got to own purpose in your own work… There are people in great cultures; there are people with great jobs who are miserable because they don’t personally make the decision to show up.
Denver: With only about a third or slightly more of the people actually engaged in work… and purpose-driven, some of that, as you suggested, comes from within. But some of it also is your external environment. What are some of the challenges you think we have in the modern workplace today?
Aaron: It does have to start with each person. I think this is one of the first problems, is people don’t own their own sense of meaning at work. There are people in the worst jobs with the worst management who still find meaning in that work. So I always say, you’ve got to first own it. Don’t start by blaming others. You’ve got to own purpose in your own work. The workforce have put too much of the onus on management, and wants to get your purpose with your paycheck, and that’s just not the way it works. There are people in great cultures; there are people with great jobs who are miserable because they don’t personally make the decision to show up.
That said, I think there’s a bunch of things we do to make it harder for them. One which I just alluded to is: we say people only need to act professional, which is code word for don’t make friends at work; don’t be human at work, and we’ve just taken that too far. People need authentic relationships at work, and we need to find ways to help with that. The second is we’ve had such a move towards efficiency and productivity that we removed craft from jobs. We removed the ability to have task diversity where people are just doing the same thing over and over and over again, and that makes it really challenging to be able to really find meaning at work. Is it still possible? Sure. But if you’re doing the same thing for day after day after day, year after year, and there’s no diversity there, it really is hard.
That’s why a lot of nonprofits, they have great missions, but their employees are not finding meaning in their work because they’re in such siloed functional roles, and they’re not growing, and they’re not experiencing craft. So you have to find that balance between these different elements.
Denver: Kind of an industrial age mindset of the assembly line, just efficiency as opposed to adaptability and doing things that are completely different. Well, let’s pick up on nonprofit organizations. You are not only an expert in purpose-driven organizations but also in nonprofits, and particularly with your work at Taproot. What sort of challenges do they have there? I find so many of them are too dependent upon their mission. They think because they’re saving the world or feeding children or educating, that that is enough. But you really find that it probably isn’t enough; it’s a strategic miscalculation. And so many don’t train their people… or develop their people… or do any of those other things. What advice would you have for these nonprofits to get started? Or otherwise, I think they’re going to be on the short end of the talent war with social good businesses and others.
Aaron: That’s exactly right. I think there’s two core pieces that I look at. One is what you said – which is an overdependence on their mission. Cause and purpose are not the same thing. It’s great to work in an organization that’s doing good work, that has an important mission, but that’s not something most people experience every day in their work. It’s not enough to carry the game. You’ve got to really be able to think beyond just “We do good work; we have a good mission. That should be enough.”
Denver: Sort of like an oil-rich country depending on their oil and not developing the other parts of society.
Aaron: That happens? I’ve never heard of such a thing!
Denver: That’s what I read. You know what I mean? And then when the price of oil goes down, they’re flat broke.
Aaron: Yes. I was just recently in Saudi Arabia, so I know that one…I saw that firsthand.
I think the second piece is: if you ask most nonprofit leaders, they assume that the people they’re hiring are purpose-oriented. But in our study with NYU, we found in the nonprofit sector, that the majority of people are not purpose-oriented in the nonprofit sector. Nor are they in education or health care. A majority of people are not there primarily for their own fulfillment and to make a difference. I think a lot of them have window dressing that they are, but that’s not really the core why they’re there. And I think that that’s a real disservice to the sector, and we’ve got people that are in these jobs that are not coming to it with that mindset. It really hurts the mission, and it hurts the brand. I think a lot of the challenge as you’ve seen with scandals with leadership in nonprofits… or you see nonprofits that are not staying true to their mission, it’s because they’re not recognizing that just because someone wants to work in the nonprofit doesn’t make them purpose-oriented. And we need to find a way as a sector to really screen out people that are just in the sector for status and money.
…companies that are purpose-oriented outperform their peers by large margins.
…business is about creating value, and I think when we lose that sense and we start to have businesses being about making profit and not adding value, that becomes a soulless job… and ultimately, that business doesn’t succeed in the long term.
Denver: Amen! What do you think the role of social media has had in terms of impacting both nonprofits and corporations to become more purpose-driven? People are pretty free about what they post online, and you have now sites like Glassdoor. Is that having any kind of an impact on the way these organizations are trying to present themselves… and actually authentically what they’re trying to do to become more purpose-driven?
Aaron: Yes. I think it’s had a bigger impact on individuals and their need to have that personal brand that we talked about and wanting to project that they’re good people. Companies are in a similar…but I don’t know how much of a true difference it’s made. I think it’s given them a lot more ability to hear the voice of folks who are holding them accountable. I think they also see it’s a channel where they can have that kind of dialogue with folks.
What I find more often is that the people inside companies want to do the right thing, and they’re also realizing—and you see this in survey after survey—the majority of CEOs see that it’s important to have a purpose beyond profit. And I think that that’s like an authentic understanding. And you see this in study after study that the companies that are purpose-oriented outperform their peers by large margins.
So, I think it’s less about the social media pressure. I just think it’s good business, period. Because ultimately, business is about creating value, and I think when we lose that sense and we start to have businesses being about making profit and not adding value, that becomes a soulless job and ultimately,… that business doesn’t succeed in the long term.
Denver: You have written or talked about the fact that whether a person is going to be a purpose-driven individual as it relates to their work is formed fairly early in life, in their adolescence or thereabouts. Are schools doing anything to actually teach this to students, like how to become thoughtful about this subject and become more purpose-driven?
Aaron: Let’s start with the fact that less than half the people working in education are purpose-driven to begin with, so that sort of puts you in a little bit of a deficit there. I think some schools are doing a great job. My kids are fortunate enough that they’re in private schools in Seattle. They are actually taught about a lot of the most current thinking around growth mindset. My kids sometimes actually will stop me and be like, “Dad, that is not the growth mindset.” And I’m like, “What the hell are you talking about?
Denver: Carol Dweck.
Aaron: Yes, exactly. I’m like, “How are you lecturing me about that? You’re in third grade, for God’s sake.”
Denver: It’s going to get worse, by the way.
Aaron: Yes. I can only imagine. So I think some of the schools are somewhere on that progressive end of the scale. I think in the majority of schools, however, we’re still teaching this STEM mindset, which is this mindset around: “We could teach you the specific skills so you can go to college; you can get a job to pay off your incredible student debt.” And because of the way that has been built into our whole educational system, work and education has become about money, and as a result, there’s more and more fear around not gaining those skills. But the reality is our economy is going so fast that, yes, maybe right now becoming a software developer seems like a great idea. But for my son who’s 9, by the time he gets on the workforce, that’s probably not a good job. It’ll probably be already out of date. So we’re making these huge pushes around things that are going to be out of date really quickly.
Denver: Well, we talked a little bit about the insights you got from Taproot and how you wrote all about that in The Purpose Economy. And now, what you’re doing is you’re helping both organizations and individuals act on it with your venture, Imperative. Tell us about it and what it does.
Aaron: So I stared a B Corp. It’s a for-profit company with social benefit, and I’ve got to tell you, running a company is so much easier than running a nonprofit. If anyone ever doubts that, you should have a lot more empathy for nonprofit leaders.
But we’re a technology company, and what we’ve done is we’ve created a data science for purpose. So traditionally, purpose has been about poetry; it’s been about faith; it’s been this really inspiring, but very loose concept. What we realize is for a large company, if you take a large company like Walmart: if they wanted to actually bring purpose to their employees and measure that, they couldn’t just do poetic purpose for all their employees. They needed a data model for it.
So we’ve done the research to really be able to parse out the different types of purpose for people and to be able to, in about 10 minutes, pretty accurately determine what their purpose-statement would be if they wrote one with an executive coach over a month. We can predict that in 10 minutes. And with that, we can identify the data structure under it and then be able to predict everything from what kind of leader they’re going to become, how they need to grow, to even now—and you’ll love this—we are now starting to predict what type of volunteering and community work someone should do.
Denver: You do that with LinkedIn, right?
Aaron: Yes. Absolutely. LinkedIn is a big part of it.
Denver: Now, how does that work? How can you do that with an individual and say, “Hey. These are the volunteer opportunities you should chase. These are the philanthropic organizations you support,” and stick with them. How can you do that?
Aaron: Magic. It’s all magic. I’ll give you an example. One of the dimensions that we found really important is that people gain purpose at different elevations. Some people really need to feel like their work makes an impact on individuals. They need to have that sense that there’s a tangible impact. The next elevation believe that they get the most meaning when they help teams and organizations. They want to build institutions. They want to have that sustained impact. And others say, “Unless I feel like I moved the needle on an issue, I don’t feel like I’m really making an impact.”
Aaron: At a societal level. And this really is something that’s pretty stable within people, and it roughly breaks down a third, a third, a third. A third of people need that direct impact, a third more of that organization, and a third, that societal piece.
Denver: I would imagine that’s probably true for the organization, as well, that you work for. So let me ask you this: what if I’m not in sync with my organization? What if I’m an individual person and I’ve got a societal organization? How do you get those two together?
Aaron: So if you have an organization that’s making that societal impact, as an individual, you can still get some meaning by cognitively connecting and trying to trace down to where that impact is. So you can still, as a purpose-oriented person, gain meaning in that job. But there are certain jobs where you’re going to get more meaning, and those are the ones where you are really deeply aligned with that level of impact. So it’s a question of…I really strongly say: you should be able to find purpose in any job if you’re self-aware and you cognitively connect to the work that you’re doing– back to that level of impact you want. But there are definitely jobs out there that are a better fit for you based on your purpose.
Denver: Let me close with this, if I can, Aaron. One of your great, great talents is pattern recognition, and that’s just a fabulous skill to have. Are there any new patterns that you’re beginning to see emerge or take shape as it pertains to the future of work?
Aaron: So many, I don’t even know where to begin with that. The biggest one is just more and more work is freelance and contingent work. More and more people are not taking full-time jobs or are having portfolio jobs. And the research shows people who don’t have that single anchor employer and don’t have that stability, they really need meaning to be able to create that linkage because they don’t have the stable relationships they would have in that workplace.
So what we’re going to see over the next 10 years is the majority of the workforce not being in what we consider full-time jobs. And as a result, they’re becoming CEOs of this sort of company of themselves. And they’ve got to be really clear about: what is that purpose, what is their business model– being able to really be able to forge their own way. And I think that’s going to require schools to change a lot to prepare people– not to just follow in line, but actually every single person, just about, has to be an entrepreneur.
Denver: Any thoughts on artificial intelligence?
Aaron: It’s fascinating. I just got back from a conference on that topic. And it’s interesting, the number one reason people are asking for using artificial intelligence and robotics for workplace is actually attrition. People are getting really frustrated by hiring people who quit and the incredible distraction that creates in the workforce, and are moving to automation robotics largely just to have stability. It’s not that they do a better job; it’s just robots and AI don’t quit. And that ability to have that continuity to help serve clients…So, I think it’s going to be a real interesting challenge over the next decade.
Denver: Well, you’re perched absolutely perfectly for it. Aaron Hurst, the CEO of Imperative and the author of The Purpose Economy, I want to thank you so much for being here this evening. If people want information on this topic– about how they can sort of taste a little bit of the Imperative, what is your website? And what information do you have there for them?
Aaron: Imperative.com is our website and we’ve got all of our research up there, and you can learn more about how we’re working with employers from Etsy to Walmart to nonprofits– to help them use the data of purpose, to change the way they approach talent in the new purpose economy.
Denver: Thanks, Aaron. It was a real pleasure to have you on the program.
Aaron: Pleasure here as well.
The Business of Giving can be heard every Sunday evening between 6:00 p.m. and 7:00 p.m. Eastern on AM 970 The Answer in New York and on iHeartRadio. You can follow us @bizofgive on Twitter, @bizofgive on Instagram and at http://www.facebook.com/BusinessOfGiving