The following is a conversation between Karl Hofmann, President and CEO of Population Services International, and Denver Frederick, Host of The Business of Giving on AM 970 The Answer WNYM in New York City.
Karl Hofmann, President and CEO PSI Headshots
Photo by Doug Stroud
Denver: Population Services International (PSI) is a global nonprofit organization focused on the encouragement of healthy behavior and affordability of health products. It was founded in 1970, and as it commemorates its 50th year, it’s a pleasure to have with us Karl Hofmann, the President and CEO of Population Services International.
Good evening, Karl, and welcome to The Business of Giving!
Karl: Thanks, Denver. I’m happy to be here.
Denver: So with this being the 50th year, we should probably begin by having you give us some of the history of the organization, how it got started, and how it has evolved over this past half-century.
Karl: PSI, as you mentioned, was formed in 1970. It’s got a colorful history. Started by two guys, very entrepreneurial guys, who were studying public health at the University of North Carolina – Phil Harvey and Tim Black. They were passionate about global population issues – a lot of people were back in the 1960s and ‘70s – but they were also business people. They found a very creative way to make some money, which involved selling contraceptives through the mail to American college students. It turns out that’s a profitable business.
Over time, that business grew into a separate entity, and the profits from that became the seed capital for PSI, and that’s how we started 50 years ago – always working overseas, working on family planning, reproductive health, and then a lot of other disease areas as we grew; and we’re feeling 50 and young.
Denver: Now, how many countries are you operating in now, and how many employees?
Karl: We work in about 50 countries actually, coincidentally, and about 6,000 employees around the world.
Denver: Karl, speak a little bit about the impact of power and privilege in global health…. and does this power dynamic hold global health back?
Karl: I think it holds development back; certainly, global health has a subset of that, yes. All of us these days are confronted by the need to be mindful of how privilege works and doesn’t work.
Our typical health consumer… we may have a chance to talk about her… we think of her as Sara. She’s a person definitionally without power. She lives in the Global South, just about everything is arrayed against her, but she’s got dignity and she ought to be met with that. We ought to treat her with dignity in terms of how we approach her with health programming.
I think all of us who operate from a position of privilege – I certainly do – need to be really mindful of how that privilege engages with impact in the Global South. An organization like mine has to manifest that interest by being diverse, by looking for different sorts of funding, by including different voices within our leadership, by hiring different kinds of people. So, we look and feel different now than we did 50 years ago when we started.
Denver: Tell us a little bit more about Sara because I find it so interesting when an organization has an archetype like that. She’s an individual; she’s not a demographic or population, and that’s really reflected – from what I’ve seen, for the people I’ve met down at PSI – the way you approach your work.
Karl: Well, thank you. I hope so. We’re a social marketing company. We started out, in the beginning, delivering products and services to people who weren’t served by the public health sector.
Marketing and branding has always been a part of our identity. It’s how we approached our work. It only made sense for an organization like us to begin to look at our consumers, first of all, as consumers, and second of all, to borrow the best approaches from the private sector and use things like archetyping to get inside the minds of our consumers, to understand what her barriers are, to understand what she’s trying to overcome on a daily basis, to conceive of our programs and design them with her at the center.
Donors pay for most of what we do. Donors have their own ideas about what they want to accomplish, and so do we. But if we start with Sara, and Sara is a name we picked it because it works in most of the markets where we were.
Denver: Every language just about.
Karl: And if we start with her, we’re usually going to wind up in a good place with programming. And let me say this, Denver. What’s really been nice for us as we’ve embraced this concept is, you go anywhere across those 6,000 people in the world of PSI, and you say “Who’s Sara?” Everybody will have an answer for you.
Denver: Oh, no question about it.
Karl: Everybody knows her.
We think about the person we’re working for as a health consumer. We don’t think of Sara as a beneficiary. We don’t think of her as a recipient. We think of her as a consumer with choices and a consumer who deserves the dignity of being marketed to.
Denver: That’s right. And she is an individual, which was the thing that really struck me. She’s not like “we treat everybody this way.” They all have different needs, and if you think of them as individuals, it really changes everything that you do.
Talk a little bit about that model because, essentially, you are not like the traditional development models. Speak a little bit about how you differ.
Karl: As I said, the approach from the very beginning was around private sector channels, commercial channels. A lot of organizations use that. I think we were one of the early ones to embrace those approaches. And again, also to think about the person we’re working for as a health consumer. We don’t think of Sara as a beneficiary. We don’t think of her as a recipient. We think of her as a consumer with choices and a consumer who deserves the dignity of being marketed to.
That model over 50 years has developed into this large organization that I’m privileged to head now, and it means different things in different places. A lot of our work involves managing supply chains to ensure that products get to where they need to get to. Or working on quality service provision, making sure that Sara, if she’s going to the public sector or private sector – and a lot of people in the Global South go to the private sector for healthcare – let’s try and make sure that that quality is improved and is of a higher standard. We do that in a lot of different ways over those 50 countries.
Denver: And as your consumer, you are trying to put more power and control directly into Sara’s hands. How do you go about doing that?
Karl: You and I both think of ourselves as consumers, and we like it when we have power.
Denver: And choice.
Karl: And choice. There’s a million different ways that effective companies give us that sense during the course of our day.
We think the idea of consumer-powered healthcare is really a powerful way to drive forward the agenda around universal health coverage, which the whole world has aligned around now. Universal health coverage doesn’t mean free health care. It means that everyone should have access to quality health services without a financial burden – an undue financial burden. It doesn’t mean free; it means good and accessible.
So,consumer-powered healthcare is the idea that you start with a consumer – again, Sara – and also you take advantage of the amazing technological change that’s going on in healthcare delivery today. Think of all the things that you and I can do with our cell phones, with not necessarily being with a physician, but getting advice about a medical condition. Think of things like self-diagnosis, self-therapies, self-administered responses to a health condition.
For example, in the Global South, something like a Sayana Press, which is a self-administered and long-acting contraceptive. A woman can inject this herself subcutaneously in her thigh. It’s a contraceptive that works for six months. She doesn’t have to go back to the health facility, which is maybe a two-day walk away where she might not find the product.
This is just one example of all the ways in which we can put more power into consumers’ hands, and we think that can help drive progress toward universal health coverage.
Denver: She’s initiating it in that particular case.
Well, let’s talk about that universal health coverage because from what I just heard you say, you have to somehow segment markets – you have to find out who needs to receive this for free, who has to be subsidized in part, and who’s going to pay market rate. How do you go about doing that?
Karl: We think we have a lot of experience with that sort of market segmentation, and honestly, we’re learning every day how to do it better, or how to bring that approach with greater fidelity.
The health system, whether it’s in the United States or Zambia, involves a lot of subsidy and people not necessarily paying exactly what they should or can pay. I think the idea behind segmenting markets is: try and make sure that the subsidy goes to the people who need it, not to the people who don’t need it. And if the subsidy is declining over time, which it is, no taxpayer wants to pay more than they should for subsidy somewhere else, then those of us working in global health better make sure that the available subsidy is only going to the poorest of the Saras. And there are other Saras who can pay more of the cost of their healthcare.
Now, price is a burden – a barrier, I should say. We have to be really cautious of pricing people out of services, but there are some ways, and in almost every country, there are more ways than there were before for people to be responsible for more of the cost of their healthcare.
Denver: Let’s talk about a couple of things you do, and of course, you were built on family planning; that was your core program. Today, Karl, how do adolescents access contraception? What kind of changes are taking place and need to take place?
Karl: Adolescents everywhere probably face a lot of barriers in accessing, not just contraception, but information about reproductive health. We all remember what it was like to be an adolescent. It’s an ugly and hard time.
Denver: Not for me.
Karl: Yours might’ve been perfect, Denver. I don’t know. But it’s a passage; all of us go through it.
For years, I think even the best-minded organizations that were trying to help with contraception for young people made it available in kind of a clinical setting, thought that it was enough to sort of rebrand the products, and kids would come and get them, or young people would come and get them. And the more we understand, again, trying to get inside the mind of the consumer, the more we understand that’s not necessarily the problem that we need to solve.
Let me give you an example. We’ve been working with the help of the Gates Foundation and the Children’s Investment Fund Foundation on a program called Adolescents 360, which is designed to work in three countries in Africa – Ethiopia, Tanzania and Nigeria – and help young people with questions around access to contraception and help them avoid unintended pregnancy, which is oftentimes a death sentence in sub-Saharan Africa – becoming pregnant when you don’t intend to can often be a death sentence.
So how do we get people more access to contraception? When we started this program, we thought, “Well, we would just employ some of the old tactics. We would make services cooler, or we would bring products closer, or we would…” all those sorts of tricks. But then we took a step further, and we started to really listen to the target audience. And for, say, a young girl in Tanzania, what’s one of the most valuable things she has? It’s her fertility. It’s her ability down the road to produce a family. It’s super valuable for her. And to the extent contraceptives are seen as something that might put her fertility at risk – “It’s a foreign thing. I don’t know what it’s going to do to my body.”
Denver: “This is my asset. It can ruin my asset.”
Karl: “This is my one asset, and you’re coming here telling me I got to shut it down. I’m not sure about it.”
Denver: “I’m not so sure. Can I turn it back on? I don’t know.”
Karl: Exactly. So you build the program from that perspective: “Let’s talk to you about your life plans. Let’s talk to you about how your fertility and your ability to produce a family fits into that. Let’s protect that, first and foremost. Let’s talk about how you can space pregnancy. Let’s talk about how you can safely decide when you want to become pregnant because we know you probably want to become pregnant.”
That was like a basic understanding that we should have had years ago.
Denver: Yes. Like “you’re on my side.”
Karl: That’s the idea. And we only got there by listening to the consumer.
It’s about letting women decide when they want to have kids. And once you figure out how to put power, that power in the hands of women, then all sorts of other good things flow from it.
Denver: Well, as we look at contraception, we look at sexual and reproductive health care. How is that embedded into the SDG 2030 goals? Do we have enough money to get there? Where do we stand with all that?
Karl: Here’s a little secret for you, Denver. We don’t have enough money to get anywhere in terms of those goals. That doesn’t mean we’re not working hard at it. So the one overarching SDG, sustainable development goal, is: Health for All. That means a lot.
Denver: That’s really targeted.
Karl: Exactly. You can put a lot in that tent. There are a lot of subordinate efforts. You may be familiar with the initiative that Melinda Gates launched back in 2012, FP 2020, which was designed to put 120 million new women with access to modern contraception by 2020. That effort will fall short, but there was progress in increasing access for women who want to avoid getting pregnant.
Denver, sometimes people think that contraception and family planning is about preventing more births, and it is, but really, fundamentally, it’s more than that. It’s about letting women decide when they want to have kids. And once you figure out how to put power, that power in the hands of women, then all sorts of other good things flow from it.
Denver: Yes. They control their lives.
Karl: They control their lives. And so, I think we could agree that it’s really bad if there are women in the Global South who want to avoid having their fourth, fifth, or sixth kid, but can’t because they don’t have access to modern contraception. That’s a problem we should try and solve because it’s going to be good for her and her kids. It’s going to be good for her. It’s going to be good for her community, her country, and for all of us.
There’s a lot of effort going into trying to plug that gap, respecting her rights, her ability to choose, listening to her, but there aren’t enough resources to make the entire thing work yet.
Denver: You know, as we mentioned, after family planning, you picked up other things – HIV, tuberculosis, safe water, also malaria. Tell us about your work in malaria.
Karl: Malaria is a great story. Over the last 10 to 15 years, the world has seen a dramatic decline in malaria. It still kills hundreds of thousands of kids, in particular in Africa every year, but it’s much less than it used to. And in some cases, we’re actually on the path to malaria elimination, which is a huge achievement.
Now, this was the result of, I would say, three things. Some innovative institutions and approaches like the Global Fund or the President’s Malaria Initiative in the US context. Some really dedicated philanthropists like Bill and Melinda Gates—
Denver: Ray Chambers.
Karl: Ray Chambers – fantastic – and critically, commitment on the part of, in particular African leaders, who said, “Yes. We got to get ahead of this. We have to make faster progress against malaria because it kills so many of our citizens.”
And so, for 10-, 15 years, you’ve seen the steady, downward trend in malaria mortality, but – and here’s a “but” – that trend is starting to reverse now. Why? Two things. People are getting tired of the investment, and there are more and more people.
Denver: Those are the two.
Karl: The point is you get down very close to controlling and being able to talk about eliminating the threat from malaria. If you let your foot off the gas – and by the way, this is true of HIV as well.
Denver: Absolutely.
Karl: If you let your foot off the gas because of demography, then you’re going to see all those investments – it’s like you built a hundred-mile highway, you got to mile 99, and then you just decided—
Denver: Go back. Put it in reverse.
Karl: No more concrete.
Denver: We had Chip Lyons on the show, from the Elizabeth Glaser, and he was saying the exact same thing. In some ways, we’ve almost made too much progress because people don’t think it’s a problem anymore, but that’s a dangerous place to be because you can slide back very, very easily.
Karl: And that’s happening right now. We just need to look at that as a lost investment to all of us – everybody who’s listening to this, invested in this and these sorts of progress. And there’s been amazing progress. There are millions and millions of people alive today who wouldn’t have been but for the investments that taxpayers made. So it worked. But if you let up now…
Denver: You’ve got to get the close.
Karl: Yes, you’ve got to get the close
Denver: You know, you have said, Karl, we’re at a pivotal moment in terms of primary health care. What’s occurring right now to make this such a momentous time?
Karl: There is this agenda around universal health coverage, so you got the whole world coalescing around an idea – it’s actually not a new idea; it’s been out there for a long time – but there’s a new energy behind it and new recognition that we need to all move toward this target together. The SDG 2030 timeframe is focusing a lot of people’s minds on something such as this.
Denver: It truly serves its purpose.
Karl: And you have this correlation of events or technologies and capabilities that, as we talked about earlier, put more power in the hands of consumers.
Cell phone technology, which in the most remote parts of the world – I bet you’ve been there and I’ve been there – there’s almost no one now who doesn’t have access through themselves or a friend to a cell phone. So that puts you in connection with information, that puts you in connection with referral networks.
Denver: They’re leapfrogging the US in many ways because they don’t have those legacy systems that we’re stuck with here, and they’re just taking a big leap.
Karl: There’s no copper wires strung across Africa. The copper came out of Africa partly, but there are no telephone wires made out of copper because it’s all gone cellular.
So that, plus innovation in technologies around diagnostics and therapeutics, as we’ve mentioned, that all adds up to a leapfrog possibility, and we’re excited about it.
Denver: PSI is pretty maniacal when it comes to measuring your impact. Share with us how you go about it and what some of that impact has been.
Karl: Our tagline is “healthy lives, measurable results,” and measurement is one of our core values, so yes, we’re very proud of measurement. We measure a lot of things.
At the top line, we’re looking at overall health impact metrics. What are they? So for us, it’s basically something called a DALY – disability adjusted life year. A subset of that is a Couple of Years of Protection – that’s a family planning metric. And also, we’re looking at users reached, so that’s people reached who are using our products and services. And over the course of our current strategy, we’re aiming for 90 million DALYs, 75 million CYPs and 100 million users reach.
Now, what does that mean? What are 90 million DALYs? We had to look at that as a DALY is a year of healthy life that would have otherwise been lost to death or disease, but for the work that we’re allowed to do with the help of others. So, 90 million DALYs is 90 million years of healthy life that are added back to Sara’s account, if you want to think of it that way. It’s years of healthy life pouring into Sara’s life account.
Denver: And productivity for all of us.
Karl: And productivity for all of us. That can come through avoiding an unintended pregnancy, or getting treated for TB, or avoiding a malaria death or sickness that keeps you away from work, or avoiding diarrheal disease that may keep your kids out of school – all those things added up. We put a tremendous amount of effort into modeling each one of our interventions and how they add up to that health impact.
Denver: And you work with the World Health Organization, the World Bank. They are the ones who do the estimates on all of this, and that then becomes a metric that kind of guides what you’re trying to do.
Karl: We think of it as our retained earnings.
Denver: That’s a good way to look at it. I like that metaphor.
What’s your business model? You’re a pretty big organization – over $500 million, between a $500 million and $1 billion. What are all those different sources of revenue? How important is philanthropic support to that whole picture?
Karl: Philanthropic support, not surprisingly, is more and more important. The picture that we built over the last 50 years, largely dependent on let’s call them “big, public institutions.” In the US, that would be USAID or CDC or the Department of Defense. In Europe, it would be the UK foreign aid program called DFIDs or the German Development Bank or the Dutch Development Institution. But then, more recently, it would be institutions like the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation or Packard and Hewlett Foundation, so big, old, and not so old foundations, new institutions like The Global Fund for AIDS, TB and Malaria.
One of the most exciting things that has developed in our world in terms of funding for our work is, over the last five years, something called the Maverick Collective, which is a group of really passionate, highly energetic women determined to make a difference in the lives of women and girls in the developing world.
Denver: They are a force of nature.
Karl: They’re a force of nature. It was the Gates Foundation that challenged us to help bring that group of people together, and it’s now got its own life. It’s growing. We have Maverick Collective members. We have Maverick Next Fellows, so more junior folks. It’s all about bringing their time, talent, and treasure towards solving the problems of women and girls around the world.
With a name like PSI – you’ve probably never heard of us before, Denver, or at least before you did your research on us – we don’t have a street corner brand. You’re not going to find colleagues of mine trying to get you to give us $25 a month on the street corner.
Denver: No. If we go outside and ask people about PSI, we’re not going to get too many takers who’d say, “I’ve heard of it.” Maybe Save the Children or UNICEF, but not PSI.
Karl: Well, Save the Children, its name is its brand.
PSI has never had a model that focused on individual givers, but we do try and focus on people who are thoughtful about measurable impact. We were privileged to be featured in Peter Singer’s book, The Life You Can Save.
Denver: Yes. I know. He was on the show just a couple of weeks ago.
Karl: He’s a fascinating guy, and I think he’s celebrating 10 years of that book.
Denver: He did, and that’s why I got him on the show.
Karl: All right. So you’re timely.
We’ve always been privileged to be among the organizations that he holds up as a place where you can be sure that your philanthropic dollars are having a measurable impact because that’s what we’re determined to show.
Denver: Yes. You’re like on the top of the GiveWell list and all those different types of organizations.
How’s impact investing going with you guys? And where are we with that, at least from what you’re saying, between getting those competitive market returns and having a social impact? Does it kind of fall in some place?
Karl: I think you and I would agree there’s more talk than reality on that so far still. I think over the last five years, we’ve seen sort of a somewhat clearing out of the rhetoric and more focus on actual interventions that are funded through impact investing. I know there are other aspects of development that have started to make that work.
We have a few examples of it, but not many. I think there’s still a lot of people out there who are interested in social returns. We can provide measurable social returns; we just alluded to that. We can give return on investment in terms of years of healthy life, but they also want market returns along with it.
Denver: Yes. No concessionary returns for that. I hear that.
Karl: Yes. So let’s be realistic about that. We need to, together, all of us in the sector, figure out how to unlock that tremendous pool of resources because that makes official development assistance a drop in the bucket versus investable capital, risk capital that’s out there. And you and I know there are a lot of people out there who can deploy huge amounts of risk capital who want to see a social impact return.
So, honestly, what I think is kind of missing now is there aren’t enough intermediaries in the space to connect the pools of risk capital with outcomes on the ground. I hope we can be one of those, but I know others are trying to do that, too.
Denver: I have to say the ratio between words spoken on impact investing and deals done is pretty astronomical.
Karl: I agree.
Karl Hofmann and Denver Frederick inside the studio
We want to be the one that is doing things with a private sector focus, a corporate orientation, a real dedication to measurable impact, and a long history of showing that we can do it in hard places.
Denver: Talk a little bit about your corporate culture. Finding the right people to work for you and the kind of work you’re doing is a challenge for every organization. What is it about PSI that allows you to attract and then keep some of these talented people?
Karl: We’re in a fight for talent all the time. I think we’ve got some great talent. One of the things I’m really proud of at PSI is that we have a very high number of people who’ve been there 15-,18-, 20-, 25 years. That’s an incredible asset, and we’re really proud of that. At the same time, at the more entry-level for our organization, there’s a lot of churn, and we work hard to try and keep people engaged, but it’s a really competitive marketplace.
And so, what’s the corporate culture? It is one where I hope we live out our values: measurement, trust, collaboration, commitment, pragmatism, and honesty. We’ve always been a place that felt a little bit different in the nonprofit space. You alluded to it earlier. We sell a lot of things. We give a lot of things away for free – all those mosquito nets and malaria, we give those away for free. We sell a lot of condoms and contraceptives. So sometimes other organizations don’t quite know – “Are you guys for profit or are you not for profit?” We’re very much not for profit, let me assure you. But so there’s a bit of a corporate edge to the culture at PSI, which we’re proud of and that we hold onto.
Denver: It could be very healthy.
Karl: Yes, I think so. At the end of the day, we’re in the business of saving and improving lives; we better be really focused about being business-like. We better be focused on returns against that target.
There are a million organizations out there that are doing good things, and I respect all of them. We want to be the one that is doing things with a private sector focus, a corporate orientation, a real dedication to measurable impact, and a long history of showing that we can do it in hard places.
Denver: I have found that some of the best organizations are those that hire people from the private sector, but you really can’t hire people from the private sector unless you have that business orientation…because they want to take their skill set and apply it for a nonprofit, but too many nonprofits don’t give them that opportunity because they’re not run with that business orientation.
What about your philosophy of leadership, Karl – the influences in your life that helped shape you as a leader and maybe a lesson or two you’ve learned along the way that has served you well in your current role?
Karl: I’ve been privileged to work for a lot of really great leaders. In my previous life, I worked at the State Department and for some really amazing people on the public scene in the United States. Lots of very positive lessons from great leaders across my career in the foreign service; also some really powerful lessons of what not to do, just to be honest.
The leadership culture that I think I brought to PSI and, frankly, that PSI has shaped in me is a lot about shared leadership. It’s a big organization. There’s certainly no sense of running it like a dictatorship. My approach involves a lot of delegation, a lot of collaborative thinking about how we move forward together, a real effort to try and build a team culture.
One of the challenges I think in nonprofits is that you could sometimes have too much consensus, if that makes sense.
Denver: It makes an awful lot of sense.
Karl: So, there’s an excess of democracy in my world. Sometimes you have to be focused on just decisiveness.
Denver: That’s right. Too much consensus is chaos.
Karl: Exactly. And then you start to lose your talent because if you’re not capable of making clear decisions, then the best talent you’ve got will throw up their hands and say, “Well, I can find a better place.”
Denver: That’s right. You’ve got to listen and listen and listen, but every once in a while, you’ve got to close the door and say, “This is what we’re going to do.”
Karl: And this is the way we’re going to go. And hopefully, you’ve built up enough capital along the way so that everybody says, “Okay. I’m with you. I may not agree with you, but I’m with you.”
Denver: At least you heard me.
Karl: Yes.
Denver: Let me close with this, Karl. You aspire to build the NGO model for the future. What does that vision look like? How far down the road toward it is PSI?
Karl: I think the NGO of the future is going to be more self-sustaining, less reliant on philanthropy, less reliant on giving of all sorts, more able to generate its own returns. So, a blended business model.
I think the NGO of the future is going to have very strong credentials in the Global South. What does that mean? Does it mean headquarters in the Global South? Maybe. Does it mean leadership from the Global South? Maybe. Does it mean a very dispersed corporate structure with a lot of centers of gravity in the Global South? Probably, something like that. But it has to do all that in a way that’s still efficient and not bloated.
I think the modern development institution of the future has to be one that is a successful talent machine that is bringing in talent from all over the world and is allowing that talent to flourish in a lot of different roles, whether it’s for 5 years or for 25 years. But being able to draw those talents from everywhere, so a diverse approach to talent management and leadership.
And ultimately, the successful NGO of the future better be able to show that it’s making a difference against the measurable indicators that the world has set for how we’re going to make progress over the next decade. So, you have to be able to bring some scale; you’ve got to be able to bring some discipline around measurement, and obviously, you have to be able to bring a commitment to the mission.
Denver: You’ve got to know how big the problem is and how big your contribution towards it is, as opposed to helping 1,000 and then 1,050.
Karl: I think that’s right. If you’re not ambitious in this game, then—
Denver: You’re not in the game.
Karl: You’re not in the game.
Denver: I also hear you say that in addition to being the CEO, you’re probably also the chief talent officer.
Karl: I hope I am.
Denver: It would have to be. Well, Karl Hofmann, the President and CEO Of Population Services International, I want to thank you so much for being here this evening. Tell us about your website and how people can help if they’re inspired to do so.
Karl: Thanks very much, Denver. www.psi.org. Learn all about our work around the world. Meet some of our people there. Learn about our innovative programming. And yes, if they’re so inclined to help support us, there’s an easy way to do that through the website, and you can see the impact of your gift in terms of years of healthy life.
Denver: Well, thanks, Karl. It was a real pleasure to have you on the show.
Karl: Thank you, Denver.
Denver: I’ll be back with more of The Business of Giving right after this.
Karl Hofmann and Denver Frederick
The Business of Giving can be heard every Sunday evening between 6:00 p.m. and 7:00 p.m. Eastern on AM 970 The Answer in New York and on iHeartRadio. You can follow us @bizofgive on Twitter, @bizofgive on Instagram and at www.facebook.com/businessofgiving.